Everybody must have a pastor?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

It doesn't say anything about a 'covering'. It certainly says to respect and obey the eldership, but says nothing about 'you NEED a man to be your covering.' Believers should be in submission to those who have oversight of the assembly, indeed. And who are those who 'have the rule over you'?

I notice it says 'as they that must give account'. I think if more people understood the significance of that, fewer people would desire to 'have the rule'...

I think it's obvious. He lacked wisdom as many preachers do, and the brethren who had any authority at all to send him away would be the apostles Peter and John, etc.

I will gather some notes on authority in the kingdom of God to post here in this thread since it's a very vital issue so many are unaware of.

I've seen no responses to verses KeptByTheWord noted.

Heb 13:17 KJV Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Houston, you said you're your own pastor. You don't fall under this category of what this verse teaches?

[mfblume]

First of all,
Joshua had Moses.
Elisha had Elijah.
Timothy had Paul.

The sons of the prophets were students under the prophets, as under Elijah and Elisha.
They were mentored.

Ministers need ministers over them:

2Ki 6:1 KJV And the sons of the prophets said unto Elisha, Behold now, the place where we dwell with thee is too strait for us.

They had a sort of BIBLE SCHOOL under Elisha. And there were so many they needed to expand their house.

Moses laid his hand on Joshua and Joshua received the spirit of Moses.

Deu 34:9 KJV And Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom; for Moses had laid his hands upon him: and the children of Israel hearkened unto him, and did as the LORD commanded Moses.

Elijah was directed to mentor Elisha.

1Ki 19:16 KJV And Jehu the son of Nimshi shalt thou anoint to be king over Israel: and Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abelmeholah shalt thou anoint to be prophet in thy room.

God did not directly train Elisha but used Elijah to do so.

1Ki 19:19-21 KJV So he departed thence, and found Elisha the son of Shaphat, who was plowing with twelve yoke of oxen before him, and he with the twelfth: and Elijah passed by him, and cast his mantle upon him. (20) And he left the oxen, and ran after Elijah, and said, Let me, I pray thee, kiss my father and my mother, and then I will follow thee. And he said unto him, Go back again: for what have I done to thee? (21) And he returned back from him, and took a yoke of oxen, and slew them, and boiled their flesh with the instruments of the oxen, and gave unto the people, and they did eat. Then he arose, and went after Elijah, and ministered unto him.

Israel had government in their setup under God.

Exo 18:21 KJV Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:

Government is in the kingdom of God, plain and simple. Spiritual government.

Not only did Exodus show people positioned in government over God's people., but the people went to these leaders for help and did not go directly to God. That is not to say we cannot seek God, but it does say God uses people to whom we submit in regard to their advice.

Elders were in the church to whom people went to for prayer. Notice the bible commanded this, and many today think they don't need anyone to go to.

Jas 5:14 KJV Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

These elders were a form of spiritual government.

Act 14:23 KJV And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed.

Tit 1:5 KJV For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:

1Ti 5:17 KJV Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

Paul repeatedly instructed Timothy to heed the doctrine he got from Paul.

1Ti_1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1Ti_1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti_4:6 If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.
1Ti_4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.
1Ti_4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.
1Ti_5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
1Ti_6:1 Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.
1Ti_6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
2Ti_3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
2Ti_3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti_4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
2Ti_4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I have not thrown the baby out with the bath water. I have not said that a pastor is not necessary. YOU are the one getting all riled up, and saying some really wild stuff, like a two-headed monster, lol!

I plainly shared scriptures that show that pastor is not the ONLY governing ministerial gift given to the church. Absolutely there should be a pastor, but there also should be other governing bodies as well. The church was set up with plural leadership because the kingdom of God is under Jesus Christ, and the 5 gifts of governing ministry were meant to balance the church out, and keep it from becoming a one man show.

One thing that is not clear in the NT is whether the gifts of the governing ministry were to be for each individual house or gathering, or a city, or a state, or even a nation. This point needs to be discussed further, I think.

For example, we know that the church met from house to house. Did they all, at one time, ever come together? I do not find that anywhere in scripture.

I do know that the gifts of the governing ministry need to be active in the church, but... what comprises the church... a house, a home, a group of homes, a city, a state, a nation of believers?

We know that in Revelation the Lord Jesus spoke to the angel of the church. Was this "angel" the governing body of ministry over an entire city, or just over just one group of people meeting in a home?

Bumping this...

Anyone want to address this? Is there any historical evidence to support that the 7 churches mentioned in Revelation were just one building with people attending, or was it the entire group of believers in that city?

This is an important piece of this discussion... does every small home group/church need all five governing bodies of ministry, and all the gifts of the spirit functioning in each particular home, or would that nucleus extend to a far greater area?

[mfblume]

People think of spiritual government is people dominating saints. That is not so. Jesus spoke of his leaders not dominating people.

They ruled spiritually but not as though people served THEM, but these leaders directed people to serve God.

Rom 13:1-7 KJV Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. (2) Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. (3) For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: (4) For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. (5) Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. (6) For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. (7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

God has authority we are meant to recognize as authority.

EVEN JESUS recognized spiritual authority and would not respond to the high priest until the high priest, said, "I adjure thee by the living God, tell me..."

Mat 26:62-64 KJV And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee? (63) But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. (64) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

[mfblume]

God sent people to be saved to OTHER PEOPLE.

Angels won't preach the gospel.

Act 10:1-6 KJV There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band, (2) A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway. (3) He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius. (4) And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God. (5) And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter: (6) He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

Cornelius could have said, "You tell me. I don't need man. Angel, preach what I need to do."

No. God set PEOPLE over the church and we must heed them.

Paul is dealt with by Jesus Himself! And Jesus Tells Paul to go to Ananias.

Act 9:6 KJV And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.

Act 9:10-17 KJV And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. (11) And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, (12) And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. (13) Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: (14) And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. (15) But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: (16) For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. (17) And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Over and over again we see PEOPLE submitting to other PEOPLE in the church, when God could have easily had them do what He said directly without any Ananias's or Peters involved.

Ananias was barely mentioned in the New Testament. Almost a nobody. But Jesus directs Saul to go to him and obey his words. It is the authority of God that is the point here, not a man. Saul met the authority of God working through Ananias. He was actually obeying God when Ananias spoke to him. It's not the person we are obeying, but God's authority in the person.

I already showed Jesus being silent before the high priest until the high priest adjured Him by the true God. Paul also showed respect to offices God set up, even though the PERSON might not be right in what he was doing. It was an office GOD instituted.

Act 23:1-5 KJV And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day. (2) And the high priest Ananias commanded them that stood by him to smite him on the mouth. (3) Then said Paul unto him, God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law? (4) And they that stood by said, Revilest thou God's high priest? (5) Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people.

Read that carefully. Paul rebuked the high priest and spoke harsh words to him. He called the man a whited wall. PAUL APOLOGIZED when they told him the man whom he just spoke to was the high priest. "Revilest thou God's high priest? (5) Then said Paul, I wist not, brethren, that he was the high priest: for it is written, Thou shalt not speak evil of the ruler of thy people."

Jude speaks of this as well, even when it came to SATAN!

Jude spoke of people disrespecting authority. Satan was a fallen angel. He once held a position ordained of God but fell from his first estate. Michael contended with Satan, and Jude flatly stated Michael would not rail against the devil, but had somewhat of a respect, seemingly for his former position.

Jud 1:8-9 KJV Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. (9) Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

The context is people despising dominions. Jude's point was that if Michael would respect satan to a degree, not because of the person of satan, but because of the position God formerly gave to him, then how much more should we respect authority God has ordained in PEOPLE? Jude's point was that people in churches have no respect for God ordained authorities, when Michael an arch angel even respected satan. What a reproach to have people disrespect authority over them by so much as saying they have no authority over them but God. The fact is the PERSON over us in God's government is acting in God's authority. It's not that person we are obeying but rather the authority of God in that person. That's why Moses said those on God's side come to him. He did not say those on Moses' side come to Moses, but those on God's side come to Moses.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by mfblume

People think of spiritual government is people dominating saints. That is not so. Jesus spoke of his leaders not dominating people.

They ruled spiritually but not as though people served THEM, but these leaders directed people to serve God.

Rom 13:1-7 KJV Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. (2) Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. (3) For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: (4) For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. (5) Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. (6) For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. (7) Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

God has authority we are meant to recognize as authority.

EVEN JESUS recognized spiritual authority and would not respond to the high priest until the high priest, said, "I adjure thee by the living God, tell me..."

Mat 26:62-64 KJV And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee? (63) But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. (64) Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

It is quite obvious through the scriptures, as you have shown plainly, that spiritual authority was part of the NT churches. There was a respect for elders, wives were to be subject to their husbands, and the governing ministerial gifts were to be subject one to another, as members all part of one body.

The reason the physical body is used as the example of how the church is to operate is very simple. The body has many different functions, hands, arms, feet, head, legs... and all are necessary to the proper function of the body. We have two feet that have to coordinate in order to walk. Such is the way the church was designed to operate.

There is an understanding that no one is "over" anyone, but yet, we are all subject to each other.. working together to accomplish the overall plan for the kingdom of the Lord.

[mfblume]

Yes, some ministers ABUSED this concept and make people obey them, personally. No. Paul said follow him AS HE FOLLOWS CHRIST. I will not follow a minister who directs me to something that is not of Christ. But don't throw out the baby with the bathwater and think because men abused leadership that we should never obey a person in spiritual authority.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Yes, some ministers ABUSED this concept and make people obey them, personally. No. Paul said follow him AS HE FOLLOWS CHRIST. I will not follow a minister who directs me to something that is not of Christ. But don't throw out the baby with the bathwater and think because men abused leadership that we should never obey a person in spiritual authority.

I am not certain anyone here is arguing there is 'no authority in the church' or that there is no system of 'government' in the church. The question is 'what does it properly look like?'

Brother Blume, who is your pastor, and how does he pastor you?

[Monterrey]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I am not certain anyone here is arguing there is 'no authority in the church' or that there is no system of 'government' in the church. The question is 'what does it properly look like?'

Brother Blume, who is your pastor, and how does he pastor you?

Oooops....

And make sure you ask him if he pays tithe to that pastor.......

Very, very important.

[Monterrey]

So Moses was Joshua's pastor, but who was Moses pastor?

How about Elijah? Who was his?

Hmmmmmmmmm