Calling on the Name of Jesus (at baptism)

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Professor Michael O. Wise disagrees with you.

"The idea was in vogue for a long time that at the time of Jesus Hebrew was a dead language and Aramaic was only spoken in a small region. The discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls swept into the trash, the linguistic notion that Hebrew was a dead language at the time of Jesus. The majority of the scrolls were written in Hebrew, Aramaic texts were also abundant, but only a small minority was written in Greek." The Dead Sea Scrolls (1996) p. 9-10 by Michael Wise

Hence the point that the Hebrew was a liturgical language.
The Dead Sea Scrolls were liturgical not the Newspaper.
Your doctor isn't taking into consideration that Judea was under Greek speaking Gentile occupation for HUNDREDS of years. Book of Daniel starts out in Hebrew but was finished in Chaldean. Book of Acts 2 has Diaspora Judeans speaking every single language of the Roman Empire. The New Testament entirely written in Greek. Not one, let me say it again, not one shred of New Testament manuscript written in Aramaic or Hebrew. So, I guess we don't have the original words of Jesus, the Apostles or Paul? The so called oroginal name of Jesus was lost and as you teach, all we have is some banged up transliteration?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

In Hebrew and Aramaic, the spelling of the name of the Lord looks like this:

ישוע

With vowel points, it looks like this:

יֵשׁוּעַ

Let us all note, however, that the vowel points are a much later construct, courtesy of the Masorites, somewhere between or around the 9th and 11th centuries (obviously far removed from the time Jesus actually lived).

The point I am intending to make is that, without the vowel points, the name of the Lord can be pronounced in many various ways.

Just to illustrate, take the following letter from the Hebrew/Aramaic:

ש

This is the letter sin. However, with the vowel points used above, it becomes this:

שׁ

Note the one little dot in the upper right hand corner. This one dot changes the letter from sin to shin.

This little dot then changes the pronunciation and orthography from Yesua to Yeshua.

It is a veritable to shibboleth (See Judges 12:6).

Now, take this letter (without vowel points):

ו

This is vav. Depending on vowel points or not, it can be pronounced like a "v" in English, or it can have a long "O" sound (as in "Oh, I see."), or even a long "U" sound (as in "Ooh-Ahh").

According to the vowel points the Masorites gave the name, we see it written like so:

וּ

That one dot to the left tells the reader to pronounce vav with the long "U" sound.

But what if the Masorites were wrong in where they placed their vowel points?

The name could then be pronounced and spelled like so:

Yesoa, (i.e. ye-SO-ah).

But wait, there's more!

Note in the Hebrew/Aramaic spelling, the one above without vowel points, there is no extra letters between the yod and sin/shin. Without the vowel points the pronunciation is up for grabs.

With the vowel points, we have this:

יֵשׁ

The two dots under the yod are called Tseire. This gives the yod a mid front unrounded vowel sound, which in phonetics looks like this: [ei̯]. This is a very short "e" sound, similar to how we use the letter "e" in words like: men, yes, test, best, rest, and etc.

But again, the questions must be asked. What if the Masorites were wrong?

The point in all of this is that there is no way to know for certain how the ancient speakers of Hebrew or Aramaic pronounced the name of the Lord. In fact, since the Masorites didn't come on the scene until centuries later, it can rightly be said that the name "Yeshua" as it now exists may actually be a Middle Age invention.

Yeshua, both in orthography and pronunciation is, however, acceptable. But let us not quibble about it as if it is the only legitimate pronunciation. I personally make use of the name Yeshua, both in writing and in prayer. But I don't think it needs to be elevated as if it were some grander, better version than anyone else's. The truth is, had the Masorites not placed their vowel points into the Hebrew text of the Bible and thus create the Masoretic Text, we'd likely have almost no idea how to learn to read Hebrew in the modern day. And we'd quite possibly not pronounce "Yeshua" as "Yeshua".

Indeed, what IF the Masorites were wrong? 600 years later they construct their Bible. VS you uttered the words which have caused huge debate. One has to keep in mind that they didn't preserve their language because they never spoke their language outside their religious establishments. Proof is that the Jews were speaking Yiddish (only Henrew in synagogue) until the Zionist Ben Yehudah revised the Hebrew in the 20th century. What we have is a dead language that no one knew how to speak, or remember how the some words came together. Let's look at English. In the English certain words were spelled differently. Depending on where you lived you may spell Tyre Tire. It was phonics they focused on, because that is how they put words together.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Just because Eusebius is quoting him does not mean he did not say it a long time ago.

When you cite Abraham Lincoln does it mean he did not say those words many years ago?

If I quote your words a week later does it mean you did not say them a week earlier?

Come on, you know that second hand information isn't as reliable as the original. Something like not having the original Gospels because they were lost in their original language and had to be reconstructed in Greek.

[Godsdrummer]

What if we have it all wrong in the first place? We debate the use of the name of Jesus and now the pronunciation of the same. But in the bible days names referred the character of the person. It was brought to my attention a couple of years ago that the world "name" means authority or Character. Which follows the meaning of Matt 1:21, you shall call his character Jesus, the Hebrew meaning of Jesus is "Jehovah saved".

The thing is we get so wrapped up with the name when we should be more concerned with the authority of his character.

Acts 4:12, Neither is there any other authority/character where by we must we must be saved.

This would be why the seven sons of Sceva could not cast out the devils, even though they used the proper name, they did not have the authority of Christ.

Just a thought. Carry on as you were.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

In Hebrew and Aramaic, the spelling of the name of the Lord looks like this:

ישוע

With vowel points, it looks like this:

יֵשׁוּעַ

Let us all note, however, that the vowel points are a much later construct, courtesy of the Masorites, somewhere between or around the 9th and 11th centuries (obviously far removed from the time Jesus actually lived).

The point I am intending to make is that, without the vowel points, the name of the Lord can be pronounced in many various ways.

Just to illustrate, take the following letter from the Hebrew/Aramaic:

ש

This is the letter sin. However, with the vowel points used above, it becomes this:

שׁ

Note the one little dot in the upper right hand corner. This one dot changes the letter from sin to shin.

This little dot then changes the pronunciation and orthography from Yesua to Yeshua.

It is a veritable to shibboleth (See Judges 12:6).

Now, take this letter (without vowel points):

ו

This is vav. Depending on vowel points or not, it can be pronounced like a "v" in English, or it can have a long "O" sound (as in "Oh, I see."), or even a long "U" sound (as in "Ooh-Ahh").

According to the vowel points the Masorites gave the name, we see it written like so:

וּ

That one dot to the left tells the reader to pronounce vav with the long "U" sound.

But what if the Masorites were wrong in where they placed their vowel points?

The name could then be pronounced and spelled like so:

Yesoa, (i.e. ye-SO-ah).

But wait, there's more!

Note in the Hebrew/Aramaic spelling, the one above without vowel points, there is no extra letters between the yod and sin/shin. Without the vowel points the pronunciation is up for grabs.

With the vowel points, we have this:

יֵשׁ

The two dots under the yod are called Tseire. This gives the yod a mid front unrounded vowel sound, which in phonetics looks like this: [ei̯]. This is a very short "e" sound, similar to how we use the letter "e" in words like: men, yes, test, best, rest, and etc.

But again, the questions must be asked. What if the Masorites were wrong?

The point in all of this is that there is no way to know for certain how the ancient speakers of Hebrew or Aramaic pronounced the name of the Lord. In fact, since the Masorites didn't come on the scene until centuries later, it can rightly be said that the name "Yeshua" as it now exists may actually be a Middle Age invention.

Yeshua, both in orthography and pronunciation is, however, acceptable. But let us not quibble about it as if it is the only legitimate pronunciation. I personally make use of the name Yeshua, both in writing and in prayer. But I don't think it needs to be elevated as if it were some grander, better version than anyone else's. The truth is, had the Masorites not placed their vowel points into the Hebrew text of the Bible and thus create the Masoretic Text, we'd likely have almost no idea how to learn to read Hebrew in the modern day. And we'd quite possibly not pronounce "Yeshua" as "Yeshua".

Hey Bro, I am fine with the English Jesus. If I never had ventured past reading the English version of the Bible I would not have a care about it.

When I first came to Jesus I figured that Christ was Jesus last name. I knew very little. Early on I began to see there were Christians who would teach for hours (if anyone would listen) about the smallest of issues fighting it out over some "preposition".

After a while I began to hear some teaching on the issue at hand. I saw quickly that it would be a good thing to know the original name. No doubt it is a struggle to try to nail it down.

I just dont understand how people can get very heated over OTHER issues and throw the Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic around BUT when it comes to THIS ISSUE then they seem to have little or no interest! Or even worse fight against it as if it were something evil....as you see on this forum.

So I am guilty as charged with saying that Jesus is the most beautiful name in the English language but that "Yeshua" or some very same sounding Hebrew name associated with the Saviour is the original. I have baptized a number of people into that name...usually saying something like I baptize you into the name of Jesus Christ..that is Yeshua the Messiah.

Now as to the fact about the Masoretic vowel points. Obviously everyone should understand that, at least among people who concern themselves with Biblical languages.

So some would say since we dont know for sure what the sound should be its just a waste of time. My response is why then should we attempt to study or vocalize ANY HEBREW NAME? Whats true for Yeshua is true for Jacob, Moses, David, or ANY Jewish person in the OT?

I dont see anyone in this thread who teaches one is lost or its wrong to use the name of Jesus. I see some like myself who believe it is important to know the name of our God and Savior as was spoken by his parents, family and friends. Those original disciples.

I have noticed since I first came to this forum a certain core of people if they see anyone use the Hebrew name INSTANTLY strike out against it! You cannot have a discussion with them because they apparently think you are speaking against Jesus Christ!

Now its true there are hardliners on the other side who make stupid statements about the name of Jesus and who think there was a great conspiracy to take away the true name. They certainly have poisoned the waters for discussion.

A while back I started backing off using "Yeshua" very much here because it was being blasphemed. Yet to one who is hungry for all the truth and light they can get I am happy to engage with them.

I have ALWAYS had trouble fitting in with Oneness Pentecostals sad to say. I am Oneness. I am Pentecostal. Thats about where the similarity ends it would seem. I thought I was throwing in with people who were burning with desire for truth. Istead.....many....not all....seem to be happy to sit back and gloat that one is going to Hell because someone did not say....I baptize you in the name of Jesus at their baptism, even if Jesus was the reason they were doing it. Because they loved HIM!

Yes to that large group among Oneness they major on that and then teach mostly borrowed Catholic and Evangelical doctrine.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Hey Bro, I am fine with the English Jesus. If I never had ventured past reading the English version of the Bible I would not have a care about it.

When I first came to Jesus I figured that Christ was Jesus last name. I knew very little. Early on I began to see there were Christians who would teach for hours (if anyone would listen) about the smallest of issues fighting it out over some "preposition".

After a while I began to hear some teaching on the issue at hand. I saw quickly that it would be a good thing to know the original name. No doubt it is a struggle to try to nail it down.

I just dont understand how people can get very heated over OTHER issues and throw the Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic around BUT when it comes to THIS ISSUE then they seem to have little or no interest! Or even worse fight against it as if it were something evil....as you see on this forum.

So I am guilty as charged with saying that Jesus is the most beautiful name in the English language but that "Yeshua" or some very same sounding Hebrew name associated with the Saviour is the original. I have baptized a number of people into that name...usually saying something like I baptize you into the name of Jesus Christ..that is Yeshua the Messiah.

Now as to the fact about the Masoretic vowel points. Obviously everyone should understand that, at least among people who concern themselves with Biblical languages.

So some would say since we dont know for sure what the sound should be its just a waste of time. My response is why then should we attempt to study or vocalize ANY HEBREW NAME? Whats true for Yeshua is true for Jacob, Moses, David, or ANY Jewish person in the OT?

I dont see anyone in this thread who teaches one is lost or its wrong to use the name of Jesus. I see some like myself who believe it is important to know the name of our God and Savior as was spoken by his parents, family and friends. Those original disciples.

I have noticed since I first came to this forum a certain core of people if they see anyone use the Hebrew name INSTANTLY strike out against it! You cannot have a discussion with them because they apparently think you are speaking against Jesus Christ!

Now its true there are hardliners on the other side who make stupid statements about the name of Jesus and who think there was a great conspiracy to take away the true name. They certainly have poisoned the waters for discussion.

A while back I started backing off using "Yeshua" very much here because it was being blasphemed. Yet to one who is hungry for all the truth and light they can get I am happy to engage with them.

I have ALWAYS had trouble fitting in with Oneness Pentecostals sad to say. I am Oneness. I am Pentecostal. Thats about where the similarity ends it would seem. I thought I was throwing in with people who were burning with desire for truth. Istead.....many....not all....seem to be happy to sit back and gloat that one is going to Hell because someone did not say....I baptize you in the name of Jesus at their baptism, even if Jesus was the reason they were doing it. Because they loved HIM!

Yes to that large group among Oneness they major on that and then teach mostly borrowed Catholic and Evangelical doctrine.

Excellent message here brother.

Being pro Yeshua does not mean we are anti-Jesus.

anyone who thinks we are against the name of Jesus does not understand us.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Excellent message here brother.

Being pro Yeshua does not mean we are anti-Jesus.

anyone who thinks we are against the name of Jesus does not understand us.

I understand you are not "against the name Jesus". What I don't understand is why you are in favor of a doctrine and approach that is NOWHERE taught by the apostles, and in fact is CONTRADICTED by their example.

That's what I don't understand.

[Michael The Disciple]

The name of the Lord is the greatest name in the history of the Earth. Yet we are supposed to believe it got lost before it ever made it to the ends of the Earth. We know the names of all the worlds leaders. But....we cannot know the name above every name!

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The name of the Lord is the greatest name in the history of the Earth. Yet we are supposed to believe it got lost before it ever made it to the ends of the Earth. We know the names of all the worlds leaders. But....we cannot know the name above every name!

You are absolutely correct and the greatest name above all names is Yeshua, so it is great to know the actual and original name.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The name of the Lord is the greatest name in the history of the Earth. Yet we are supposed to believe it got lost before it ever made it to the ends of the Earth. We know the names of all the worlds leaders. But....we cannot know the name above every name!

The Name of the Lord was not and is not lost, it was preserved for all time in the pages of God's Holy Word - IESOUS (Jesus in English).

It is the 'sacred name' doctrine which claims the Saviour's name was lost since NOBODY used 'Yashua' until about the beginning of the 20th century.