"Let Us Prey"-Hunter Lundy - Page 16

n david · #**151** 05-27-2016, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

This is true, but again, very broad and does not disqualify a repentant sinner. I know of men who were in prison, got saved and now have a "good report" of others who have seen the transformation.

Originalist · #**152** 05-27-2016, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

If the youth pastor molests one or more of the kids, then "truly repents", he should be restored to a position of youth pastor?

Hey, if the pastor embezzles all the church's money, and "repented", how many of you think he should be given the money bag? Would you trust the guy to manage YOUR money? Okay for a convicted thief to manage the church's money, but you have higher standards for YOUR money?

Just wondering on the subject here...

I actually agree with your points. Thus every violator should be considered on a case by case basis.

votivesoul · #**153** 05-27-2016, 09:31 PM

The qualifications for a bishop given by Paul in Scripture were for initial assessments in order for Timothy and Titus to make wise choices about who they should and who they should not ordain, to eldership.

Further, they are very subjective. How does one determine, exactly, who does and doesn't have a good reputation of those outside of the local church?

For example, a holiness or hell preaching Acts 2:38 preacher may have a very bad reputation among the various other churches in the area, since they don't agree with his doctrine.

This may not mean that he is disqualified from being a bishop. And yet, there may be a pastor who is well loved by all, and have a good reputation, meet the other criteria, and yet not really be suited to the bishopric.

Additionally, who determines who is still a novice, and who is ready to oversee?

Sister Alvear · #**154** 05-28-2016, 08:22 AM

along with the Bible (of course) we have to have good sense....

Evang.Benincasa · #**155** 05-29-2016, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

If a pastor cheats on his wife, got caught, and "truly repented", why would he even want to get back in the pastoral role?

I think we know the answer though it be verboten to admit it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

If the youth pastor molests one or more of the kids, then "truly repents", he should be restored to a position of youth pastor?

Hey, if the pastor embezzles all the church's money, and "repented", how many of you think he should be given the money bag? Would you trust the guy to manage YOUR money? Okay for a convicted thief to manage the church's money, but you have higher standards for YOUR money?

Just wondering on the subject here...

No restoration to the pulpit. If someone wants those jokers for preachers have at it. But as for my house and I we wouldn't sit under ( or anywhere close) to individuals who firstly didn't have enough GOD to keep their head together while they were at the wheel. Man, you wouldn't even give a politician the breaks some of you are willing to give a adulterer preacher who dropped the watermelon. He doesn't just do it to you, but his own family. Paul outlined what was needed for the job. So, were they suggestions, or were they to be followed as written?

Esaias · #**156** 05-29-2016, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Paul outlined what was needed for the job. So, were they suggestions, or were they to be followed as written?

Ah, you're just a legalist, donchaknow?

Evang.Benincasa · #**157** 05-29-2016, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

The problem as I see it is just where does Paul direct this to ministers. What is a minister in the first place?
Paul specifically uses the term "Overseer" not one of the gifts of ministry as given in Ephesians 4. What does a overseer over see? And while we are at it, who does a deacon serve. As the office means "waiter". How doe we jump to the conclusion that Paul is speaking of spiritual oversight, instead of administrative over sight of the church, such as a deacon board would serve in our day and time.

Bro, they are ministers, you do have a church government in the New Testament. Overseer covers all from the pastor, to the evangelist. Peter was an apostle but called himself an elder. Ordination was instructed to Titus. He was to ordain ministers "elders" in every city. Diakonos means one who serves. In 1st Timothy we are shown that these individuals weren't just anyone, but those who filled a qualification outlined by Paul to serve in the church. The Apostle Peter instructed that Deacons would help in serving the church families while the office of apostle would dedicate themselves to prayer, and study Acts 6:1-15. This is where Philip the Evangelist comes from the 7 appointed deacons.

Evang.Benincasa · #**158** 05-29-2016, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

Ah, you're just a legalist, donchaknow?

Better a legalist than an Antinomist

Evang.Benincasa · #**159** 05-29-2016, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Originalist

No need to substitute. If a man does not have a wife and kid, those parts don't apply to him.

Is he required to have kids in order to prove he can manage them?

Is he required to drink wine moderately to prove he's not a drunk?

I'm sorry my friend and brother, but I'm just not understanding how you are putting it together.

So an elder must be a man whose life is above reproach. He must be faithful to his wife. He must exercise self-control, live wisely, and have a good reputation. He must enjoy having guests in his home, and he must be able to teach.

Ok, so let's flip this.

He isn't married, his life isn't above reproach, since he isn't married we have no idea if he would be faithful to the closet person to him on the planet. A wife and how a brother believes about his wife is important. Because if he will mess around on her, you and I don't stand a snowball's chance bro. Because you and I never had his children, never cooked his dinner, never washed his clothes, never took care of his dirty underwear. Not to get even more graphic I respect your intelligence to know all the other things we have never done for him that his wife has done for him. He would betray her? Even to look at another woman to lust after her in his mind is a crime. If he looks at porn, he has jeopardized not only himself, but his wife has been betrayed. It's a hard call? But he can't be faithful to the woman of his vows, you and I don't stand an ice cube's chance.

But I'll keep going, no self control, the guy can have no self control? he doesn't live with wisdom? He has the worst reputation in his town? When you go to his city people tell you that he doesn't pay his bills, doesn't ever tip, is meaner than a pit bull eating gunpowder? Ok, he hates having guests, can't stand it when people drop by unannounced, and is unable to teach the ABC let alone the Bible?

I just can't see how Paul just made suggestions, instead of instruction on what to look for, and how to look for it.

good samaritan · #**160** 05-29-2016, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I'm sorry my friend and brother, but I'm just not understanding how you are putting it together.

So an elder must be a man whose life is above reproach. He must be faithful to his wife. He must exercise self-control, live wisely, and have a good reputation. He must enjoy having guests in his home, and he must be able to teach.

Ok, so let's flip this.

He isn't married, his life isn't above reproach, since he isn't married we have no idea if he would be faithful to the closet person to him on the planet. A wife and how a brother believes about his wife is important. Because if he will mess around on her, you and I don't stand a snowball's chance bro. Because you and I never had his children, never cooked his dinner, never washed his clothes, never took care of his dirty underwear. Not to get even more graphic I respect your intelligence to know all the other things we have never done for him that his wife has done for him. He would betray her? Even to look at another woman to lust after her in his mind is a crime. If he looks at porn, he has jeopardized not only himself, but his wife has been betrayed. It's a hard call? But he can't be faithful to the woman of his vows, you and I don't stand an ice cube's chance.

But I'll keep going, no self control, the guy can have no self control? he doesn't live with wisdom? He has the worst reputation in his town? When you go to his city people tell you that he doesn't pay his bills, doesn't ever tip, is meaner than a pit bull eating gunpowder? Ok, he hates having guests, can't stand it when people drop by unannounced, and is unable to teach the ABC let alone the Bible?

I just can't see how Paul just made suggestions, instead of instruction on what to look for, and how to look for it.

What if he and his wife cannot have children? Isn't that a requirement also?