IHOP - an eyewitness account

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Early this morning I watched the live stream from IHOP-KC from the prayer room.

I saw 9 people on the stage, and thee people in the 'audience'. One guy was standing, wearing a hat, listening to the music. Another guy was sitting, zoned out. Another guy wearing a hat was sitting, looking at his phone. That guy sat there for a few minutes then eventually got up and walked away out of sight of the camera. The 'audience' appeared essentially bored with what was going on.

On stage were 8 young women, and a guy (wearing a hat) playing drums in a glass-enclosed drum room. One of the women may have been a guy, he/she was obscured by another person so I am not sure...

They played a four-chord progression in what might be a 'minor key' (?), the same 4 chords, for approximately 25 minutes (about how long I watched). A young lady was standing at a microphone offering prayer for various and sundry things, especially for 'the people in the city'. Her prayer was very inclusive and exhaustive, she hit just about every possible category and 'need' imaginable. Three other young ladies sat at microphones and would occasionally take her prayer statements and sing them back, they would often alternate various statements.

The ones they chose to sing were things like 'Exalt strength' and 'We lean into your glory' and other such statements. Some times it seems as if they were coordinated before hand, their singing preceded the prayer's requests, other times the order was reversed. It appeared to me they had rehearsed this method before (in other words, they are good at improvising together).

NOBODY appeared to be genuinely moved by the Spirit. They did appear to be moved by the music somewhat. It honestly looked like a jazz improv.

My impression of the praying? About what you'd get at a typical Baptist or Lutheran or mainline Methodist church. No power in prayer, nobody prayed as if they genuinely FELT anything. I honestly think these young people at this particular prayer session have never experienced a real, 'old time Pentecostal prayer meeting'. Most of them were not praying anyway, they were just 'soaking' in the music (ie enjoying the mood, doing what is called in the secular world 'chillout').

The lady's prayers were certainly things worth praying for, and I commend the effort on their part to have 'continuous prayer' (something the catholic and eastern orthodox churches strive for as well, and have been doing since the early middle ages). But I do not think their methods are effective or Biblical.

I DO see they have a zeal, they seem to be wanting to sincerely do what they believe God would have them to do. They just do not seem to have a zeal according to knowledge.

Again, I am not understanding how people think something like this is superior to even basic, standard, 'nothing special' prayer service in a genuinely Pentecostal meeting?

I have been to charismatic meetings. Although people act all 'blown away' nobody really was blown away by anything. I have been to Pentecostal meetings however where unrepentant and hardened sinners LITERALLY FLED THE SCENE RUNNING and when I asked them what the problem was they were SCARED, shaken, and said 'there's something in that meeting that I just can't handle, it's waaaaaay too heavy'. I have seen people practically DIE (spiritually) under conviction and the fear of God and wondrously saved, praying through shouting the victory in other tongues, prophesying, magnifying God so much it's a wonder they didn't have a stroke or aneurysm from the intensity of what was happening. I have seen numerous times where everyone spontaneously falls down on their faces in pure adoration towards Jesus Christ and you literally could not stand up if you wanted to.

And I have seen people's LIVES CHANGE PERMANENTLY, as they abandoned sin and selfishness and were DRAWN CLOSER TO GOD and conformed more fully to His Word, as evidenced even years later in their lives.

It is true - a lot of Pentecostal churches nowadays are Pentecostal in name only, it seems, having dried up, leaving only a shell of their former reality. But having a mind-numbing rock concert, light show, hypno-session does not a good replacement make.

I do not understand (well, actually I do...) the emphasis on MUSIC to 'get the Spirit moving' found in almost ALL charismatic churches. Yes, I am aware that many Pentecostal and apostolic churches have made the same mistake (just with a different genre of music). But it seems like mood music has become a crutch, a substitute for a genuine heart-cry to God and a genuine meeting with Christ.

I think I may in the near future take a trip to Dallas to the local IHOP or IHOP affiliated 'center' and meet and speak to the people there. I'd like to pray with them, too.

One of the best ways to get to know someone is to pray with them.

Hey Bro to watch 25 minutes of the Prayer room will not tell the whole IHOP story. I have seen many hours of different worship groups there over a period of years. They are like most groups. Some of the people have a dynamic anointing and some dont. I have seen what you saw myself.

I have also been tuned in when I would wail in tears of love for Jesus and his work among his people that love him. As far as lives being changed permanently I sense in my spirit many of these lives have. I certainly could not say all have. I can say in my experience with Oneness Apostolics since 1978 that it seems some of their lives have been permanently changed. I have also noticed some who seemed pretty carnal.

If you go to Dallas thats good. However I dont think their meetings in any given place are the highly structured type you fing among Apostolics. I have a friend who has visited their meetings in Maryland and it does not seem they are in "organizational unity". Its more like they all try to pray as much as possible around the clock.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Years ago, I used to go to church, expecting to receive something. If I didn't get what I was was looking for, I would start looking somewhere else.

Then the Lord taught me, 'I put you in a family, not so you could divorce your family if they don't satisfy your personal wants. Rather, I put you in a family so YOU could help meet THEIR needs.'

It completely changed my entire outlook on church.

Once I got that understanding, the only time I 'left a church' would be if they made it absolutely clear they didn't want what I was trying to bring to the meetings and that in their minds they wanted me to 'move on'.

The last time that happened, we quit going and within a month the pastor had dumped his wife and ran off with some floozy and the church collapsed entirely. God had moved us out of there before the crater erupted.

I look back though on two churches I had left in my early days, and I feel bad. As if I had abandoned them because 'MY' felt needs weren't being met. And I wasn't intentionally selfish, either! I really thought and believed that if I went to a meeting and was not seriously impressed with a 'move of the Spirit' that God wanted me to shake the dust off my feet and move on. That God didn't want me there.

And maybe God was protecting THEM from ME, at that time in my life.

But I have since learned, the meeting is what the people make of it. There won't be any more Holy Ghost in a meeting than what people bring with them when they come.

If the meeting is dead, it may very well be because you didn't have enough Holy Ghost in you to light the fire. (I mean 'you' in a general sense, not YOU personally, brother Mike.)

There is a danger in having a room temperature religion. Lukewarm means 'achieved equilibrium with the environment', in one sense. If one enters a dead meeting, and one cannot 'feel the Spirit' and get lost in the presence of God UNLESS the environment has all the right stuff - the right music, the right preaching, etc... one may just be lukewarm, one may just be adjusting to the surrounding temperature.

We aren't saved to be thermometers, we are supposed to be thermostats.

Esaias my friend, I have been at this for 42 years. I have been an Elder for 13 years of that in several Assemblies. I know what it means to strive together and love others for the cause of Christ.

Almost every Church I have been part of was at least somewhat of a doctrinal compromise. Christ himself makes it very hard to do what you are suggesting and what I did for years. As a young Apostolic Elder...appointed so by my Pastor I really tried to hang in there with them. I died to self many times as I heard some obnoxious things being taught.

I preached holiness and perfection once a week there for about a year. Only then to have the Pastor give the "true" definition of perfection in Christ.

Men shave beards, take off watches and rings, long sleeves only. Women never trim hair and always wear dresses. And everyone pay tithes!

Nothing about purity of heart! This has been MY experience among Oneness Pentecostals down through the years.

Whereas Paul speaking of the end time said...Let no man deceive you by any means for that day shall not come (Christs coming) unless there be a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed the son of perdition. 2 Thess 2:1-3

So Paul by the Holy Ghost is commanding us not to be deceived by any other doctrine. Now we would be compromising by attending any Church that teaches such a thing MUCH LESS bringing others into it.

So many times the choice is not easy to make. Go to Church and look the other way when other false doctrines are taught to your family and to others you are trying to bring.

I could go on but thats enuff for now. Each of us have to walk carefully in trying to please the Lord and trying to find a Church where it does not seem as if truth matters.

I am always looking for fellowship with others around the Apostles doctrine. Keep praying for me!

[Michael The Disciple]

Cant speak for anyone else, but when I hear and see this....I am moved to the core of my being. If it seems like the world to someone else we are indeed a universe apart.

[good samaritan]

sounds satanic

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

sounds satanic

See Post 43.

Are these people praising Jesus? Are they honoring him? Or are they praising Satan?

It is so unusual for people to hear a song about the coming judgement of God it sounds like Satan to them. Mercy Lord!

[good samaritan]

It's probably all the chanting and the Metallica like melody.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Cant speak for anyone else, but when I hear and see this....I am moved to the core of my being. If it seems like the world to someone else we are indeed a universe apart.

OK, I watched the entire video. Honestly, I was disturbed on several levels. And I think the main "disturbance" is the disconnect between the sound, the actual music itself, coupled with what I was seeing, on the one hand... and the message of the lyrics on the other hand.

If I ignore for a moment the message of the lyrics, EVERYTHING else is VERY familiar to me... to the life I was in prior to being saved by Christ. The rhythm, the vibe, the sound, the lights, the scene... it's a rock concert, thousands of people being carried along by a current seething with highly charged energies... its a sensation I remember, being stoned out of my mind, everyone just hypnotized, under a spell, Megadeth on stage, or some local hair band, lots of sexual energy involved, angst, a sort of intense yearning for release, the kind of vibe and feeling that makes it seem entirely rational to go home with someone you have no idea who they are...swirling lights, it's all sort of a blur, just an incoherent collection of unlabeled passions whirling around and taking everyone along for the ride...the same feeling and vibe I've felt at the local honky tonk... same as I've felt on a Friday night on Elgin St in Houston and down in Hollywood and Santa Monica... a feeling I pursued with gusto all my life prior to coming to Christ...

And yet it's paired with a message that doesn't seem to fit, that Jesus is returning... that disjunction creates in me a very strange feeling of disconnection and some disorientation...

I am not expressing this adequately in words, I'm not sure how to. And I'm not just a hater of any particular genre of music. I can appreciate just about any style of music. But at a concert, a night club, etc there is a conscious effort to manipulate the audience, usually to generate a strong "feeling", and a lot of modern "worship experience" settings/events seem to me to be identical to that. And in the background there's always somebody making money off it.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

It's probably all the chanting and the Metallica like melody.

God is good! Peace to you!

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

OK, I watched the entire video. Honestly, I was disturbed on several levels. And I think the main "disturbance" is the disconnect between the sound, the actual music itself, coupled with what I was seeing, on the one hand... and the message of the lyrics on the other hand.

If I ignore for a moment the message of the lyrics, EVERYTHING else is VERY familiar to me... to the life I was in prior to being saved by Christ. The rhythm, the vibe, the sound, the lights, the scene... it's a rock concert, thousands of people being carried along by a current seething with highly charged energies... its a sensation I remember, being stoned out of my mind, everyone just hypnotized, under a spell, Megadeth on stage, or some local hair band, lots of sexual energy involved, angst, a sort of intense yearning for release, the kind of vibe and feeling that makes it seem entirely rational to go home with someone you have no idea who they are...swirling lights, it's all sort of a blur, just an incoherent collection of unlabeled passions whirling around and taking everyone along for the ride...the same feeling and vibe I've felt at the local honky tonk... same as I've felt on a Friday night on Elgin St in Houston and down in Hollywood and Santa Monica... a feeling I pursued with gusto all my life prior to coming to Christ...

And yet it's paired with a message that doesn't seem to fit, that Jesus is returning... that disjunction creates in me a very strange feeling of disconnection and some disorientation...

I am not expressing this adequately in words, I'm not sure how to. And I'm not just a hater of any particular genre of music. I can appreciate just about any style of music. But at a concert, a night club, etc there is a conscious effort to manipulate the audience, usually to generate a strong "feeling", and a lot of modern "worship experience" settings/events seem to me to be identical to that. And in the background there's always somebody making money off it.

Wow. Thats all I can say.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

It's probably all the chanting and the Metallica like melody.

Chanting?