Elephant in the room - accusation of judging

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Shazeep, do you believe muslims or ANYONE is lost if they do not even believe Jesus died on the cross? If not, then why? If so, then why?

Can you explain why someone would intentionally hate their own life? Why did the Good Samaritan help the guy in the ditch? He did not believe Christ on the cross, so why is he held up as an example to emulate? You are insisting upon a literal understanding of these spiritual concepts, and demonstrating that you have not grasped them spiritually, perhaps. You are maybe putting conditions on Christ that the Bible did not mean to enforce, although i agree with them. But you can't just cut out these passages of Scripture and pretend they don't exist.

I mean, observe your thought progression since we have considered the GS. First, he never existed; then he was not saved. Then he was saved because he accepted Christ. All of those have been shot down now, Mike. And we had similar struggles with every spiritual passage i introduced. It's time to contemplate whether or not Scripture is being spiritually withheld from you, wadr.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Shazeep,:
Joh 3:17-18 KJV For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Do you believe these verses indicate that people who do not believe they need be saved through Christ are saved? If so, why? If not, why? What does it mean to not believe on Him, and why are they condemned if they do not believe on Him?

i just treated this verse, so that will prolly do, if not let me know.

Originally Posted by mfblume

I predict you cannot answer these questions or will refuse.

oops

Originally Posted by mfblume

Also, what is there between me and muslims that I need to forgive them for? You spoke of forgiveness, and I do not recognize why I would have to forgive them for I personally have nothing against them.

um, you don't think maybe they have a claim against you? A snide answer here is that i was awake for sunrise, and it doesn't come from where you might think it comes from sorry. I quoted forgive and you will be forgiven in this context to contrast with the spirit of "they are all lost."

Originally Posted by mfblume

The bible says we need faith in the work of the cross to be saved, and they deny the cross even occurred, so how can they have faith in it to be saved?

The Qur'an says what you are saying, yes, but it also says follow Christ or be doomed, and in more places, i note. Consider that you might be misunderstanding these, as they seem to conflict. Consider that the RCC had the world awash in blood then, much like your religion has it now, and for a Muslim perhaps your demand has a different, legal meaning to them that does not approach its spiritual meaning. Consider that there are 100 points of Scripture that a Muslim would fully agree with for every one that you manage to condemn them with. Of course, they are all the verses you have spiritually edited out, but whatever.

You don't have to go to church with Muslims, or determine the state of their salvation, or agree with their doctrine. You are neighbors; you have to be a decent neighbor, period. Or rather, obviously you do not have to be, drone bomb them into oblivion and circulate petitions denying them immigration, and keep trying to convince me how they are lost

Originally Posted by mfblume

That's my conclusion. It's nothing personal. lol Forgiveness is required when someone has hurt me personally. There is no personal issue here, since it is a general overview of faith compared to faith. Not people. I know people are involved, but the people are the issue. It's their faith.

so then you remain oblivious to the damage you cause, and have a personal faith in where the sun rises that others cannot challenge.

Originally Posted by mfblume

When it comes to forgiveness it's been you who has taken this personally and attacked me as a person.

yes, i have lost patience with your sanctimoniousness and condescending at times, and tried to do some tit-for-tat to illuminate it, which was wrong and i have apologized, more than once. Of course in your spiritual state i don't expect you to ever forget it or forgive me, or apologize yourself, none of that.

Of course if you do, i will have to apologize again...lol. I really don't mean that to be unkind, Mike, i hope you see that. And i don't really take offense at your indiscretions, we are debating. But note that i am not a pastor.

[shazeep]

I know you think that way. Yada yada yada. That's aside from the point. That's why I am asking you for YOUR thoughts on the passage and how it affects salvation or not. You are dodging again.


but you have not established me dodging yet; you just maybe don't like my answer. My answer is possibly inadequate for you because i don't think we are qualified to be talking about salvation like we know something, and i present other Scripture to suggest this, which you are dodging, unless i am about to read a treatment of women might be saved in childbirth. Am i?

[shazeep]

when i say that Scripture has been spiritually denied you, i mean all of us. We descend from the RCC, who physically withheld the Bible for hundreds of years, until the definition of Church was corrupted. Church is now that little motgaged building we go to a couple hours a week. And even within the Established church we have doctrine, that does not agree with the doctrine of the Pentecostal church next door, so they are prolly going to hell, too.

I'm not sure how we could be any further removed from the kingdom in this model.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Shazeep: not only would that be reckless, but VERY foolish.

A far better solution would be for Islamic states to rescind their
laws against preaching the gospel, and SPONSOR 1,000 Oneness
evangelicals to enter and preach the gospel there! That would be
far more cost effective, and better for all concerned. With that type
of freedom, far more than 100,000 muslims might hear and believe
the gospel: I dare say it may be in the 100's of thousands more than
the number you suggest!

The Phnxman

look, i would not normally ever suggest that you mix cultures, but the situation suggests that God has a better idea. You say reckless and foolish, but you cannot witness any Muslim atrocities against you personally, by the millions of Muslims in your midst now, and a strong case can be made that you have destroyed their brothers' homeland, by providing a religious argument that they are lost.

If responsible and thoughtful has gotten you to here, perhaps it is time to consider reckless and foolish from our perspective? I just threw that out there anyway, of course it won't happen, as we are more concerned with circulating petitions to stop Muslim immigration than recognizing what poor neighbors we are being.

Instead of trying to convert Muslims on the other side of the planet who are not interested, maybe you could just stop providing tacit permission to drone bomb them? Is that too much to ask? If i suggest, strongly, that you will be called to account for "All Muslims Are Lost," then the onus is on you to address this, and not me to defend Muslims, wadr. Instead of sponsoring, or sending proselytizers, maybe you could come out in some other righteous way; send food or something? A strongly worded letter, maybe?

Anything to demonstrate that you are not in lock-step with the State will be better than nothing, imo. If you want to judge salvation, judge our salvation, which is in doubt, and the evidence is mounting.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by phareztamar

I simply state all muslims are lost because the bible clearly says you have to have faith in the cross of Christ and they deny Christ even had a cross.

as a ball in high weeds

ok, and i simply state that you are living in groundless fear of Muslims, and all of your fears will be realized. If every Muslim will bow the knee to Christ, what are you scared of? Please state your reasoning for "reckless and foolish," and testify to the crimes the Muslims currently living among you have committed, and we can contemplate these.

But if they are being generally good neighbors, you might seek to apply good fruit comes from good trees to them, and overlook what you possibly misinterpret in their Book, choosing instead to focus upon the Qur'an's follow Christ or be doomed.

But you are a house divided, yes? You can't even extend this to Catholics! Your doctrine is killing you, if it does not contain You reap what you sow. It is you who will be held to account for your superior knowledge and understanding of the Cross, not Muslims. Seek your own salvation suggests a point at which one should mind their own business, and wadr your water is poisoned, ok?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Firstly, I am Canadian. And secondly, what the gov't does is what the gov't is doing.

yes, and it's strictly a coincidence that you espouse All Muslims Are Lost as we simultaneously bomb them back to the stone age, surely. Maybe God will consider that you are a Canadian, and give you a pass.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Sorry you are assuming things. That came out quite clearly when the muslim with whom I talked told me I was lost because I believe Jesus is God's Son, and you reacted as though nothing was wrong -- the very thing you accused me for in damning hysterics. .

well, you are in a Jesus Cult, so maybe he had a point. You went to him, with an agenda, that was not reconciliation; why are you talking to Muslims, when you can't even agree with other Pentecostals?

A Muslim is naturally going to say that as a reaction to the RCC--who set up the foundations of your Jesus cult--and them advocating prayer to Mary, and even some Pents pray to Christ; where is this in Scripture?

The amazing thing, if one considers it, is that the Qur'an commands a Muslim to follow Christ, not that they have a different cultural understanding of "God has no family." You might ask yourself why you ever even deigned to contemplate "All Muslims are lost;" is it not because you need someone to be your enemy?

How is this any different than Commies, or Blacks? You cannot be blind to the progression here, surely.

[shazeep]

Again, aside from the point., The point is WHAT YOU THINK OF THIS and how you make your conclusions based on this passage. I know it's hard, since you have a vendetta against me. But please try to focus. What are YOUR thoughts apart from any reference to me or mine?

my thoughts are contained in the quotes, of course. My thought are that you have to change your mind in order for Scripture to make sense to you, and if you are spouting what most every other american is spouting about muslims, you obviously have not changed your mind.

[shazeep]

Can't stay away from me, can you>


it is you who espouses a lie, Mike, don't take it personally. If you can't accept

ok, if you want to get technical, Jesus was not the name that Christ went by anyway, so you're doomed.

in the sense meant, then my apologies, i'll work on that, and please change "you're" to "we're."

[shazeep]

See? Dodge dodge dodge. You cannto deal with a passage in itself.


i am not calling you into my beliefs, ok? You do not have to believe like i do. If that seems like a dodge to you, then perhaps you do not understand the point being made there, or perhaps it was not meant for you, but those are my thoughts on the matter, which i doubt would make much sense to you, tbh, so you can either extend yourself out to my comment, and seek to understand what i meant rather than what i say, and ask pointed questions about my reply that might allow for more understanding, or you can build a higher wall and say i'm dodging.

If it is you who is lost, it is you who must seek your own salvation. If your salvation is incumbent upon everyone else to be lost who does not accept your understanding, i am not interested in even changing that, ok? I am not the one wringing my hands over the Muslim Invasion, or saying that everyone else is lost.

I am just trying to connect the dots here, in a way that you have to accept is not going to be comfortable for you, similar to what i have been doing; ruining your legal Pauline quotes by pointing out Love in them, pointing out all the contortions at "GS," etc. Turning "Love your neighbor is 9/10ths of the Law" back into a Christian command.

If these don't agree with your doctrine, the choice is up to you what you keep and what you discard, and so far it has been obvious. where did you even end up @ the GS salvation, anyway? Who knows. Are Catholics saved now, if they obey god? No longer clear. Is "love your neighbor" now a command, or is it still attempting to follow the Law? Anyone's guess. And you say i am not being clear?