True or False: Grace is harder than Law - Page 12

mfblume · #**111** 08-13-2016, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

So the 'hard' lies in us, not grace or the law.

Right!

good samaritan · #**112** 08-13-2016, 10:29 PM

This thread is built upon false understandings of grace and the law (dispensationalism). No one has ever found salvation through the law, but it has always been by grace through faith. So if you ask me is the law easier, then I would say no. By the law, no one will be saved. The law was not given for our salvation, but instead it was to guide us to salvation.

If you think about it, salvation has always been by God's grace. Those in the OT where under the law, but yet they where still saved by grace the same as us. The law didn't save them, but it only foreshadowed better things to come. Grace was not revealed until incarnate Christ came, but that grace was shed from the foundation of the world in the mind and will of God. They found salvation by grace through faith (faith caused them to want to keep the law, but it was only Christ sacrifice that put an end to their sin).

So is grace harder than the law? No. Grace is the work of God, and the law was only to point the way to that grace. We are just as much expected to be holy in our lives (no more and no less) as they in the OT (no difference aside from the ceremonial part of things). The flesh is no different today then it ever has been. We wrestle against our flesh just like everyone before us.

Today, we have the knowledge that God will not receive us based upon our own righteousness. It is the righteousness of God that we need in our lives. In the day the Lord has prepared, the work of grace will be completed in us (to hear him say well done).

The law and salvation through works only brings false security. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. No person has ever been good enough! I learn this message everyday that I live. Paul said when he did good evil was present. We are vexed with the flesh so long as we are in this life. We depend on God's grace the same as everyone from Adam to present. Salvation is only by grace and through faith, and nothing else.

shazeep · #**113** 08-13-2016, 10:34 PM

uh, wow. don't know if i'm here to comment or remove this post now

might there be one accepted who has not been baptized in water according to those rites you hold dear, and i do too? Ty

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

One thing is true: Rejecting grace will bring a harder punishment than rejecting the law did...

you envision people engulfed in flames, when i suspect they will be right beside you, and merely lack knowledge

good samaritan · #**114** 08-13-2016, 10:36 PM

Dispensationalism teaches that people received salvation another way than Christ. Christ is the only way. He is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. There has never been a man saved by the law. All who are saved, have been saved By Jesus Christ.

mfblume · #**115** 08-13-2016, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Paul said when he did good evil was present. We are vexed with the flesh so long as we are in this life. We depend on God's grace the same as everyone from Adam to present. Salvation is only by grace and through faith, and nothing else.

I agree with most all you said except this part about Paul. Paul was not talking about his life during his entire christian walk when he said that. He was describing the failure of a person who uses will power to serve God by keeping laws in contrast to someone who lives by the Spirit.

It's not as long as we live we are vexed to failure. It's as long as we exert will power to serve God without any faith in reliance on His Spirit that we are vexed for failure.

Paul put himself in the shoes of someone keeping law but not walking after the Spirit's help, and it's easy to confuse his words. We think he always struggled all his life. No. That was only a description of what it's like to use will power.

We know this because we learn that Paul said he DIED when he attempted to keep law (Rom 7:9-10). But he said we LIVE by relying on the Spirit instead of lawkeeping.

Romans 7:9-10 KJV For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. (10) And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Romans 8:13 KJV For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

When he used will power by attempting to keep laws, he died.

When we walk after the flesh we die.

Same thing. Synonymous terms.

And Paul knew how to walk after the Spirit.

Grace is also interpreted as DIVINE EMPOWERMENT!!!

shazeep · #**116** 08-13-2016, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Dispensationalism teaches that people received salvation another way than Christ. Christ is the only way. He is the lamb slain from the foundation of the world. There has never been a man saved by the law. All who are saved, have been saved By Jesus Christ.

i suggest that no man would 'hate his life' for no reason, other than grasping repentance

good samaritan · #**117** 08-13-2016, 10:43 PM

Shazeep, I have wondered what you believe. In a nutshell, Do you believe that people will find salvation through Jesus Christ involuntarily if their heart is pleasing to God? In essence their religion doesn't matter as much, so long as their heart is right with God and man (having what we understand as fruit of the Spirit).

Esaias · #**118** 08-13-2016, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by good samaritan

This thread is built upon false understandings of grace and the law (dispensationalism). No one has ever found salvation through the law, but it has always been by grace through faith. So if you ask me is the law easier, then I would say no. By the law, no one will be saved. The law was not given for our salvation, but instead it was to guide us to salvation.

If you think about it, salvation has always been by God's grace. Those in the OT where under the law, but yet they where still saved by grace the same as us. The law didn't save them, but it only foreshadowed better things to come. Grace was not revealed until incarnate Christ came, but that grace was shed from the foundation of the world in the mind and will of God. They found salvation by grace through faith (faith caused them to want to keep the law, but it was only Christ sacrifice that put an end to their sin).

So is grace harder than the law? No. Grace is the work of God, and the law was only to point the way to that grace. We are just as much expected to be holy in our lives (no more and no less) as they in the OT (no difference aside from the ceremonial part of things). The flesh is no different today then it ever has been. We wrestle against our flesh just like everyone before us.

Today, we have the knowledge that God will not receive us based upon our own righteousness. It is the righteousness of God that we need in our lives. In the day the Lord has prepared, the work of grace will be completed in us (to hear him say well done).

The law and salvation through works only brings false security. Salvation has always been by grace through faith. No person has ever been good enough! I learn this message everyday that I live. Paul said when he did good evil was present. We are vexed with the flesh so long as we are in this life. We depend on God's grace the same as everyone from Adam to present. Salvation is only by grace and through faith, and nothing else.

shazeep · #**119** 08-13-2016, 10:48 PM

ya that was sick huh

Quote:

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Shazeep, I have wondered what you believe. In a nutshell, Do you believe that people will find salvation through Jesus Christ involuntarily if their heart is pleasing to God? In essence their religion doesn't matter as much, so long as their heart is right with God and man (having what we understand as fruit of the Spirit).

well put. yes. i think the one should not be forgotten and the other done, but one who's heart is right with God might not conform to your expectations at all. and the crime is in the prejudices that that dynamic brings to bear.

mfblume · #**120** 08-13-2016, 10:54 PM

One thing I see in this issue of law and grace is that we can handle the new covenant as though it were a law like Moses codes of conduct. And Jesus may as well not have died on the cross at all. Can you imagine reading Jesus say that law forbade murder, but grace says hate without a cause pits one for judgment?... and then trying to fulfil that without the Spirit's strength?