True or False: Grace is harder than Law - Page 13

good samaritan · #**121** 08-13-2016, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

I agree with most all you said except this part about Paul. Paul was not talking about his life during his entire christian walk when he said that. He was describing the failure of a person who uses will power to serve God by keeping laws in contrast to someone who lives by the Spirit.

It's not as long as we live we are vexed to failure. It's as long as we exert will power to serve God without any faith in reliance on His Spirit that we are vexed for failure.

Paul put himself in the shoes of someone keeping law but not walking after the Spirit's help, and it's easy to confuse his words. We think he always struggled all his life. No. That was only a description of what it's like to use will power.

We know this because we learn that Paul said he DIED when he attempted to keep law (Rom 7:9-10). But he said we LIVE by relying on the Spirit instead of lawkeeping.

Romans 7:9-10 KJV For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. (10) And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

Romans 8:13 KJV For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

When he used will power by attempting to keep laws, he died.

When we walk after the flesh we die.

Same thing. Synonymous terms.

And Paul knew how to walk after the Spirit.

Grace is also interpreted as DIVINE EMPOWERMENT!!!

I need to dig a little more into that passage. My point was that we are not going to be perfect in the flesh and no matter how much we love God our human will is going to exist. I don't know if I agree with divine impowerment at least in the way some may suggest. Just because we have the Holy Ghost doesn't mean we will never fail again. Those unreal expectations have caused many to walk away and have brought reproach against the church when Christians do fall.

Esaias · #**122** 08-13-2016, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I need to dig a little more into that passage. My point was that we are not going to be perfect in the flesh and no matter how much we love God our human will is going to exist. I don't know if I agree with divine impowerment at least in the way some may suggest. Just because we have the Holy Ghost doesn't mean we will never fail again. Those unreal expectations have caused many to walk away and have brought reproach against the church when Christians do fall.

I taught a message awhile back on the subject. A lot of folks got their entire sanctification confused with a 'one stop shopping experience' and forgot that we must be sanctified DAILY (continually). Also, sanctification is not about 'never being able to fail'. God does not remove our will, there is no 'once saved always saved' nor is there a 'once sanctified always sanctified' as if one did not have to daily (continually) rely on the grace of God by faith.

This needs to be taught more clearly in our ranks, but unfortunately we have allowed a lot of Baptist - evangelical doctrine to cloud the issue.

mfblume · #**123** 08-13-2016, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I need to dig a little more into that passage. My point was that we are not going to be perfect in the flesh and no matter how much we love God our human will is going to exist.

Amen.

Quote:

I don't know if I agree with divine impowerment at least in the way some may suggest. Just because we have the Holy Ghost doesn't mean we will never fail again.

Exactly, which is why many with the Holy Ghost still sin.

From what I studied in Romans 6, Paul said that unless we know we died with Jesus so we could be dead to sin, and rise in newness of life, and come to God in faith with that mindset, we will sin. We will think we have to sin. And whatever we think we have to do, we will find ourselves doing it. So, Paul changes our expectations, and shows us we can expect victory if we understand the purpose of Christ's death and our baptism into it. We need confidence and God sees this faith for the purpose of His Spirit, and will empower us.

So, it is MUCH MORE than having the Holy Ghost.

It reminds me of Israel having the Ark. God's Presence. And they spied out Canaan and doubted they could enter. Joshua and Caleb said GOD IS WITH US! We can do this. But the other people looked at their own natural abilities, and looked at the giants and walls, and said they could not.

This showed God's power was abandoned and they relied on themselves. And God COULD NOT HELP THEM. Same with us. We can have the Holy Ghost like they had the Ark. But if we still rely on ourselves and not His power, we will fail.

Notice 39 years later they held the ark aloft and opened up the Jordan and brought down the same kind of walls their parents feared!

mfblume · #**124** 08-13-2016, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

I taught a message awhile back on the subject. A lot of folks got their entire sanctification confused with a 'one stop shopping experience' and forgot that we must be sanctified DAILY (continually). Also, sanctification is not about 'never being able to fail'. God does not remove our will, there is no 'once saved always saved' nor is there a 'once sanctified always sanctified' as if one did not have to daily (continually) rely on the grace of God by faith.

This needs to be taught more clearly in our ranks, but unfortunately we have allowed a lot of Baptist - evangelical doctrine to cloud the issue.

That is why Paul taught...

Galatians 5:16 KJV This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

WALK is a daily thing. A continual reliance and denial of the flesh. We stop walking and we sin.

mfblume · #**125** 08-13-2016, 11:09 PM

Brethren, we're dealing with Word that is hardly touched. It is what Peter described:

2 Peter 3:13-16 KJV Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. (14) Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. (15) And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Esaias · #**126** 08-13-2016, 11:09 PM

It would be nice to have a conference or campmeeting focused on this subject of real Bible holiness and sanctification... hint, hint...

mfblume · #**127** 08-13-2016, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

It would be nice to have a conference or campmeeting focused on this subject of real Bible holiness and sanctification... hint, hint...

I DREAMED of that sort of thing. More particularly, the whole issue of Romans and walking after the Spirit.

good samaritan · #**128** 08-13-2016, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Exactly, which is why many with the Holy Ghost still sin.

From what I studied in Romans 6, Paul said that unless we know we died with Jesus so we could be dead to sin, and rise in newness of life, and come to God in faith with that mindset, we will sin. We will think we have to sin. And whatever we think we have to do, we will find ourselves doing it. So, Paul changes our expectations, and shows us we can expect victory if we understand the purpose of Christ's death and our baptism into it. We need confidence and God sees this faith for the purpose of His Spirit, and will empower us.

So, it is MUCH MORE than having the Holy Ghost.

It reminds me of Israel having the Ark. God's Presence. And they spied out Canaan and doubted they could enter. Joshua and Caleb said GOD IS WITH US! We can do this. But the other people looked at their own natural abilities, and looked at the giants and walls, and said they could not.

This showed God's power was abandoned and they relied on themselves. And God COULD NOT HELP THEM. Same with us. We can have the Holy Ghost like they had the Ark. But if we still rely on ourselves and not His power, we will fail.

Notice 39 years later they held the ark aloft and opened up the Jordan and brought down the same kind of walls their parents feared!

We don't arrive to sinless perfection or maybe I am still lost. Paul like any preacher taught and preached the mark (persay). Walking in the Spirit is the mark (persay), but there hasn't been a man alive to reach perfection aside from Christ no matter what positive thinking we have. Of course we are to walk in the Spirit, but can you name a man alive who has walked in the spirit and not in some point fulfilled the lust of the flesh. (BTW, chastity would be a must then because we marry because of the lust of the flesh.)

I am not advocating failure, but instead grace. No matter how many times a person falls they must get back up. When we walk in the Spirit we don't fulfill the lust of the flesh, but the problem is that as long as we are human we are not going to always walk in the Spirit. I don't think the apostles did either by the scriptures which reveal their flaws.

Have you ever told a lie since coming to this revelation of divine empowerment. By this logic it would make you lost. I agree when we are where we should be in the Lord we are above reproach, but the problem is that we are not capable to do that 100% every second of our life.

That is what makes the grace of God necessary as long as we live. His grace keeps us from sin, and leads to repentence when we do sin. If people have to be living in divine empowerment to be saved (aka complete power from failure or sin) then I have not met a Christian yet. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

PS I am not an adulteror, fornicator, drunkard, theif, etc....., God has brought me out of those things therefore I do have authority over sin. But, I still have days where I have lost my temper and said something to my wife our children that I should not have. I have fudged on the truth since being fill with the Holy Ghost for expedience. These are not things I make excuses or even common practices, but they do wake me up to the fact that I still rely on God's grace.

shazeep · #**129** 08-13-2016, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I need to dig a little more into that passage. My point was that we are not going to be perfect in the flesh and no matter how much we love God our human will is going to exist. I don't know if I agree with divine impowerment at least in the way some may suggest. Just because we have the Holy Ghost doesn't mean we will never fail again. Those unreal expectations have caused many to walk away and have brought reproach against the church when Christians do fall.

yes, be perfect as I am is not achieved that way

shazeep · #**130** 08-13-2016, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esaias

I taught a message awhile back on the subject. A lot of folks got their entire sanctification confused with a 'one stop shopping experience' and forgot that we must be sanctified DAILY (continually). Also, sanctification is not about 'never being able to fail'. God does not remove our will, there is no 'once saved always saved' nor is there a 'once sanctified always sanctified' as if one did not have to daily (continually) rely on the grace of God by faith.

This needs to be taught more clearly in our ranks, but unfortunately we have allowed a lot of Baptist - evangelical doctrine to cloud the issue.

I created evil you know what? i wonder if this ever goes away. free will suggests that it never does. don know what to make of that 1000 year thing...lol