True or False: Grace is harder than Law

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I am not suggesting we have to fail (willfully sin), but it is a fact the we fall along the way.

I am not talking about failing willfully. I am saying we EXPECT to fail against our wills too much, and we will find a way to do it. Paul taught there is more victory than that. Yes, there are slip-ups. But Paul is trying to get rid of our EXPECTANCY.

You actually touched on it when you agreed we will not fulfil lusts of the flesh so long as we walk after the Spirit. But we can slip away from that and make excuses for ourselves. I am not saying we will perfect this in our walks. But I am saying there is MORE THAN WHAT WE EXPECT. And we can enter that through teaching.

Every time I have fallen I am not suggesting that I was without choice and was overcome. People will fall along the way and that is not a license or excuse. God will look inside the hearts of man and will know where we really stand with him.

I think it is somewhat of an excuse because it keeps us EXPECTING to sin. That is not the mindset Paul is trying to give. In fact he's trying to correct that. It's like the bottle's half empty as opposed to half full. While you say we will fail and can only expect failure, Paul was saying we can expect more victory.

I am not suggesting that it is futile to walk in the Spirit. If we do not walk in the Spirit we again be entangled in sin. I just don't agree in a literal perfect flesh own our own merits.

I am far from saying OUR OWN MERITS. I am saying it is SPIRIT empowerment that we hardly consider. [quote]
Because of Abraham's faith righteousness was imputed to him not literal perfection in his own life. Abraham had some trouble with honesty himself when the stakes where high.

Abraham never had the Spirit like we do, though. Again, yes there are times we slip, but we can live in far more victory than we do if we take Paul's words to heart and believe them.

Lying is not an exaggeration, but it is a reality.

I never said that. I said the exaggeration was in thinking we're lost as you mentioned.

This is one of the places where I see good people fall. The wrath of man, stubbornness, etc... are just a few places where people will fall. I am not looking to fall, but I understand the nature of the flesh.

I think you are looking to fall to a degree. You are expecting it. Paul teaches we can expect empowerment.

But all of this chat is useless unless we get down to what Paul was saying. And we cannot disregard it before we actually dig into and think it CANNOT be what he said.

We are warned to flee temptation, Why? Potential failure.

But resistance to temptation is what fleeing it is all about. And the Spirit can help us. This is why we pray for God to not lead us into temptation. He helps!

I read this morning in Sunday School "1 Cor. 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." Paul warned of Israel's failures coming out of Egypt and it happening to us. He was not talking about sinless perfection, but instead Israel turning from God and going right back out in idolatry. A single mistake will not get us cast out, but being hard hearted, unrepentant, and stiff necked will.

He was talking a a rest in a place of victory. I am not saying sinless perfection. I am saying walk in the Spirit MORE.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Mr. (lol) Blume was not saying that. I was saying IN CHRIST's empowerment by His Spirit we can overcome sinful activity. We may not arrive perfectly, but still more power than what we tap into is there for us.



It is not impossible. It is just improbable.

I should have said Bro. Blume lol. I think we probably overall agree. Just are trying to go about it from different explanations. If we would or could live in 100% submission to the Holy Ghost you are correct we would live lives of perfection. I strive to do that very thing, but am not being ignorant of the flesh. when walk in the spirit we excel, but when we don't we fail. Let's walk n the Spirit and repent if or when we don't.

[mfblume]

We can talk and talk and give opinions, which is what someone else always did with me, but let's get down to WORD.

What does this mean?

Rom 5:20-6:2....Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: ..(21)....That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. ..(6:1)....What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? ..(2)....God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I should have said Bro. Blume lol. I think we probably overall agree. Just are trying to go about it from different explanations. If we would or could live in 100% submission to the Holy Ghost you are correct we would live lives of perfection. I strive to do that very thing, but am not being ignorant of the flesh. when walk in the spirit we excel, but when we don't we fail. Let's walk n the Spirit and repent if or when we don't.

Amen. But I am saying we can walk more in the Spirit than we do. It's something that must be taught more. That is all I am saying.

In fact if we do not learn the truths of Romans 6 we will fail far more times than we need to.

[mfblume]

When I made a book about this issue, I used the letters S I N L E S S.


But I did not entitle the book: SINLESS.

I entitled it SIN LESS. My stand is between sinless perfection and sin-conscious expectations to sin all the time.

[good samaritan]

[QUOTE=mfblume;1444055]

I am not talking about failing willfully. I am saying we EXPECT to fail against our wills too much, and we will find a way to do it. Paul taught there is more victory than that. Yes, there are slip-ups. But Paul is trying to get rid of our EXPECTANCY.

You actually touched on it when you agreed we will not fulfil lusts of the flesh so long as we walk after the Spirit. But we can slip away from that and make excuses for ourselves. I am not saying we will perfect this in our walks. But I am saying there is MORE THAN WHAT WE EXPECT. And we can enter that through teaching.



I think it is somewhat of an excuse because it keeps us EXPECTING to sin. That is not the mindset Paul is trying to give. In fact he's trying to correct that. It's like the bottle's half empty as opposed to half full. While you say we will fail and can only expect failure, Paul was saying we can expect more victory.


I am far from saying OUR OWN MERITS. I am saying it is SPIRIT empowerment that we hardly consider.

Because of Abraham's faith righteousness was imputed to him not literal perfection in his own life. Abraham had some trouble with honesty himself when the stakes where high.

Abraham never had the Spirit like we do, though. Again, yes there are times we slip, but we can live in far more victory than we do if we take Paul's words to heart and believe them.



I never said that. I said the exaggeration was in thinking we're lost as you mentioned.


I think you are looking to fall to a degree. You are expecting it. Paul teaches we can expect empowerment.

But all of this chat is useless unless we get down to what Paul was saying. And we cannot disregard it before we actually dig into and think it CANNOT be what he said.



But resistance to temptation is what fleeing it is all about. And the Spirit can help us. This is why we pray for God to not lead us into temptation. He helps!



He was talking a a rest in a place of victory. I am not saying sinless perfection. I am saying walk in the Spirit MORE.

I think we agree in our beliefs but are different in our approach. I don't expect to sin future. I just realize I have sinned already past tense and even since my conversion. I am repentant of my failures and don't look to do them again. The way I received you is that we aren't to fall after we have been born of the Spirit. Seeing that first hand I have fallen makes me more aware of myself.

The message you understand me making brings about expectation to sin, but the message I felt from you brings about condemnation of sin. Jesus takes care of both sides of this. The blood was shed for sins past and the Spirit helps prevent sin future. I agree we are not to sin, but if we do we have an advocate with the Father. PS Grace is still better than law.

[good samaritan]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by mfblume

We can talk and talk and give opinions, which is what someone else always did with me, but let's get down to WORD.

What does this mean?

Rom 5:20-6:2....Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound.

The law only revealed man's sins making it worse or bringing it out in the open.

But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

God's grace is stronger than man's sin and able to take care of those sins

..(21)....That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. .

Sin had reigned and bound everyone until Christ came, but through Jesus righteous sacrifice grace has loosened that hold of sin unto death.

.\(6:1)....What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? ..(2)....God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Paul asks a rhetorical question? Since God's grace takes care of sin are we free to sin? Of coarse the answer is no. How can we who have died (repented of sins) continue to live in that old sinfull lifestyle. If that is the case you never had true repentance.

Paul is not addressing a simple failure, but he is addressing an ideology that salvation by grace is a pass to sin. That is not what I teach or suggest. Before God's grace was applied to my life I was addicted to alcohol. A room mate and I drank a case a day of beer or more and it was leading into drugs and suicidal thoughts. Today I am not even tempted with that lifestyle that God brought me from. I am literally dead to it. The hold it had is gone, but I still am not absent of flesh. Eventually one day the flesh will not have to be contended with either.

Sometimes I think that I am something and that flesh tries to rise up. God helps me to recognize it and put it back into subjection. I feel like that sometimes the failure even helps me. It brings a weakness to my attention so I can focus attention to that problem in my life. I am not talking about gross sin, but I am talking about little things that God desire more from me.

I believe all this is the working of grace. Grace even allows failure. Paul says something about delivering someone to Satan to save them in the future. Grace sometimes allows us to fall and to get it right.

[mfblume]

The law only revealed man's sins making it worse or bringing it out in the open.

Amen. I think this shows we were never meant to keep Law and God planned that. He had to teach us a lesson, though. Law was that lesson. The schoolmaster.

God's grace is stronger than man's sin and able to take care of those sins

Agreed, however the more pertinent context is saying all the damage Adam did was OUTDONE by Jesus. Jesus did not equal Adam in affecting us, but did more.

Sin had reigned and bound everyone until Christ came, but through Jesus righteous sacrifice grace has loosened that hold of sin unto death.

Amen. But also notice we can RULE IN LIFE. Sin formerly ruled. NOW WE RULE, and it leads to life. The same life Paul mentioned in 8:10-11.

Paul asks a rhetorical question? Since God's grace takes care of sin are we free to sin? Of coarse the answer is no. How can we who have died (repented of sins) continue to live in that old sinfull lifestyle. If that is the case you never had true repentance.

I think it is not talking about repented. I know the old pat UPC answer is repent = death, baptism = burial, and resurrection = Holy Ghost baptism. But Paul said in the next verse we are baptized into His death, not repentant into his death.

Rom 6:3....Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Paul is not addressing a simple failure, but he is addressing an ideology that salvation by grace is a pass to sin. That is not what I teach or suggest.

I think he is addressing an ideology that says we cannot have any more victory than sinning and getting forgiveness as a result. Continuing in sin is continuing to commit sins all the time. And being dead to sin by having been baptized into His death, making his death count as ours, causes us to be free from sin (verse 7).

Rom 6:7....For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Before God's grace was applied to my life I was addicted to alcohol. A room mate and I drank a case a day of beer or more and it was leading into drugs and suicidal thoughts. Today I am not even tempted with that lifestyle that God brought me from. I am literally dead to it. The hold it had is gone, but I still am not absent of flesh. Eventually one day the flesh will not have to be contended with either.

Amen. Sin is in our flesh and that is the downward pull we always feel. There is no discharge in this warfare till our bodies are changed, or we simply die first.

Sometimes I think that I am something and that flesh tries to rise up. God helps me to recognize it and put it back into subjection. I feel like that sometimes the failure even helps me. It brings a weakness to my attention so I can focus attention to that problem in my life. I am not talking about gross sin, but I am talking about little things that God desire more from me.

I believe all this is the working of grace. Grace even allows failure. Paul says something about delivering someone to Satan to save them in the future. Grace sometimes allows us to fall and to get it right.

And grace is also divine empowerment. Check that aspect out as well. It is there for us.

After Paul said we are baptized into Christ's death, it says we are therefore free from sin. Dead to it, through Christ's death. And as much as Jesus died to sin and then proceeded to resurrect and live unto God without any power of sin over Him, we must recnkon that to be true for us.

Rom 6:10-11....For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. ..(11)....Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Verse 10 shows Jesus dead to sin, and verse 11 says we're as much dead to sin as He was.

Verse 10 says Jesus was alive to God with sin having no more power over him. Verse 11 says we're just as alive to God with no power of sin over us.

Whatever Christ obtained, we hold and maintain!

That gives us more confidence to believe we can overcome sin than the amount of overcoming we have been enjoying.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Things are starting get a little complicated and I don't know if we are trying to say the same things, but only from different perspectives. I am not talking about being a clumsy steward of the Gift of God. I refer only to the impossibility for flesh to be perfect. Votive said it earlier, that we that are born after the Spirit becomes the sons of God. We don't discard are children if they make mistakes, but we may chasten. To me it is self righteous to act as if we are some walking perfection. All the good that I am I owe to Christ. I am not justifying a right to fail, but only saying that when we do fail we have an advocate with the Father. We are not free to sin, but free from sin. In other words things may sometimes go wrong, but I am no longer bound by sin.

'...if they make mistakes...'
'...sometimes go wrong...'

Sin is sin. It is transgression of the law of God. It is not just 'making a mistake'. The Bible doctrine of sanctification is not that Christians are perfect in knowledge, or are rendered impervious to the possibility of failure. Sanctification does not mean one cannot fall into sin.

And nobody said anything about discarding our children for mistakes they make. But the Word was clear about children who refused to obey their parents - they were under sentence of death. A Christian who sins has no basis whatsoever for thinking they are still justified, unless they are corrected and repent. There is no justification while in unrepented sin. God corrects His children if they fall into sin, and His children indeed repent. But while in a state of sin, not repented of, the individual has no Biblical evidence they are still in a state of justification, and therefore cannot possibly have a BIBLICAL faith in order to maintain justification. It is only until they settle the matter by repenting that they have the Biblical evidence of their justification. No one in unrepentant sin can claim a Biblical hope they are in fact saved, until they have placed that sin under the blood by repentance.

That being said, sanctification is one of the most misunderstood doctrines of the Bible. Many have an opinion of what sanctification is, that is not Biblical. Many set the bar too high, then point to everyone's failure to meet that bar as evidence the doctrine is wrong. When however we see what the doctrine actually is, we see how tricky our flesh is, in setting up a strawman to knock down.

Sanctification, again, is not about being 'so holy you could not possibly ever sin again, ever.' Nor is it 'being so perfect you never ever make a mistake whatsoever'.

But it also certainly isn't 'you will always be sinning, just less and less, until you die, and that's cool with God.'

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

'...if they make mistakes...'
'...sometimes go wrong...'

Sin is sin. It is transgression of the law of God. It is not just 'making a mistake'. The Bible doctrine of sanctification is not that Christians are perfect in knowledge, or are rendered impervious to the possibility of failure. Sanctification does not mean one cannot fall into sin.

I don't believe our bro is diminishing the severity of sin. It is just that we do indeed make a mistake and slip and fall and commit blatant sin, a transgression of the law. It's a mistake because we never meant to do it. It's not a mistake as though it's not as serious as sin.