Those who never heard about Jesus?

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by shazeep

Don't like your own medicine, ey? You repeat your lies using some
truth: I repeat truth against your lies.

[shazeep]

For the entire law is fulfilled in one statement: Love your neighbor as yourself.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I saw many alleged contradictions in the bible, but someone showed how they don't contradict at all.

For example, one chapter says a certain king was an extremely young age when he started to rule, while another chapter in another book says the same king was much older when he started to rule. It turns out that when a king died and the dominion went to the son, the new king's mother filled in until a certain age when the young king was actually fit to rule himself. Hence, the earlier age was when the mother actually ruled, and the older age was when the king stepped up to rule himself.

There are all sorts of variations of ancient Hebrew culture that actually explain alleged contradictions to not be contradictions at all. And you are willing to risk such a serious issue by not researching these things to make sure you're right?

So, when you take the word of God and accuse it of contradictions, you are dabbling with things you might not know enough about to make such claims. And you had better be right, because you've just made a serious accusation that you base your entire scope of all religions upon.

There are many things that appear to be contradictions that are not. I give you that. However, there is also the effort to "force" an explanation that isn't found in Scripture to make contradictions agree.

What concerned me the most so far in our interaction was how you said all these religions are led by the same God.

No, that isn't what I said. I said that behind all regions is the same divine reality. Nearly every religion is corrupted. Therefore, those who are spiritual and walk in the spiritual do well to seek the truths contained in each religion.

You defended reincarnation as if it was taught in the bible. But when I listed many, and I have more, verses that show reincarnation conflicts with all the bible says, you pulled out the mistranslation and time-distortion card.

It defends on what you consider "reincarnation". Do I believe that every soul is reincarnated and that reincarnation is an experience we all have? No. What I pointed out is that God promised to send, "Elijah the prophet", and how Jesus explained that indeed, John was Elijah the prophet. I only pointed out one absolute case in which reincarnation was a reality. Let me ask you a yes or no question. God said, and I quote:

Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

Now, God promised to send, "Elijah the prophet". Not, "one like unto Elijah the prophet". Did God send "Elijah the prophet" or not? Yes or no?

Hypothetically if I was right and the bible was not authored by the same Spirit that these other religions were, and these verses proved it, you would never know because you relegate anything that conflicts with your philosophy as translated error. Isn't it a bit suspicious for you to take verses in the bible that refute reincarnation and relegate them to mistranslation or interpolation, after you claim the religious books across the board are all inspired by the one God?

None of the verses you gave me deny that John as indeed Elijah the prophet. Those verses speak of men being appointed to die and then to face a judgment. None of them prove that God in His sovereign power hasn't or couldn't or even didn't ever reincarnate an individual or select group of individuals.

And what is your basis of sticking to your guns on this matter? I can only see it as what you WANT to believe, rather than what perhaps is intended for us to believe about the issue. All you can do is say such and such a verse is perverted and not original when a contradiction to something like reincarnation is found. You cannot prove that, but simply appear to disfavour my viewpoint. There is no solid foundation on that sort of reasoning because the verses you claim agree with religious texts across the board may have been perverted as much as the texts you blatantly claim are contradictions due to perversion through time. Everything's up for grabs and nothing can be believed in the bible, if that's the case.

If one sees through the spirit they will see the truths that agree.

If I honestly believed the bible was full of contradictions, and the same goes for all holy books around the world, when one author originally inspired them all, I'd trash the whole religious walk altogether. All we're left with is a whim and a prayer. Nothing can be known.

Let's assume that the Bible is inerrant for a moment. If the Bible is perfect and inerrant, why are there over 41,000 versions of Christianity? I'll tell you, it would be because our human interpretations of the Bible are not perfect. And so, conceivably, the very same could be said to apply across the board. Are you certain your understanding of the Bible is absolutely perfect?

And if there is a God like we both agree there is, He would not leave the world in such chaos and confusion over truth. It sounds nice to think that way and accept the chaos and confusion model because it seems to base itself on simply wanting to believe everyone will make it, like you obviously chose to believe. But we cannot really know if that is true or not since everything ever written by alleged inspiration of God is perverted and lost. So, if one favours universal reconciliation like you apparently do, it's all at the cost of the never having a solid foundation for your calling and election.

Did you forget that there are over 41,000 versions of Christianity? Wouldn't the same argument then apply? Or are you saying that only Rev. Blume knows the absolute truth that everyone else is failing to see?

I think this is the betraying factor behind your view. It pleases the flesh. If everything's up in the air as to what is genuine truth and what is not in the Bible, as well as all religious texts, ultimately our flesh with its changing and turbulent whims and urges becomes the arbiter of truth. And concoct the kind of God we want to serve, rather than accept the actual God we need to serve. And that is idolatry at its best.

Many versions of Christianity teach an ascetic that "denies the flesh". However, is that not denying the truth about who and what you are at a given moment? Is that not denying that God created you a human being that is in constant flux and change? Wouldn't accepting this fluxuation simply be, being real about ourselves? And does not "truth" speak to each of us in the context of our own lives and experiences? Let us not confuse truth with fact. While facts remain constant, what is so very true for you, might not be true for me. For example, to you pizza might be the greatest food on earth. Is that true for me? No. However, the fact that the average European genome contains 2% to 4% Neanderthal DNA is a constant indicating interbreeding at around 30,000 years ago.

Not at the expense of a solid foundation.

A solid foundation doesn't produce 41,000 denominations.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Antipas

There are many things that appear to be contradictions that are not. I give you that. However, there is also the effort to "force" an explanation that isn't found in Scripture to make contradictions agree.

No, that isn't what I said. I said that behind all regions is the same divine reality. Nearly every religion is corrupted. Therefore, those who are spiritual and walk in the spiritual do well to seek the truths contained in each religion.

It defends on what you consider "reincarnation". Do I believe that every soul is reincarnated and that reincarnation is an experience we all have? No. What I pointed out is that God promised to send, "Elijah the prophet", and how Jesus explained that indeed, John was Elijah the prophet. I only pointed out one absolute case in which reincarnation was a reality. Let me ask you a yes or no question. God said, and I quote:

Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

Now, God promised to send, "Elijah the prophet". Not, "one like unto Elijah the prophet". Did God send "Elijah the prophet" or not? Yes or no?

None of the verses you gave me deny that John as indeed Elijah the prophet. Those verses speak of men being appointed to die and then to face a judgment. None of them prove that God in His sovereign power hasn't or couldn't or even didn't ever reincarnate an individual or select group of individuals.

If one sees through the spirit they will see the truths that agree.

Let's assume that the Bible is inerrant for a moment. If the Bible is perfect and inerrant, why are there over 41,000 versions of Christianity? I'll tell you, it would be because our human interpretations of the Bible are not perfect. And so, conceivably, the very same could be said to apply across the board. Are you certain your understanding of the Bible is absolutely perfect?

Did you forget that there are over 41,000 versions of Christianity? Wouldn't the same argument then apply? Or are you saying that only Rev. Blume knows the absolute truth that everyone else is failing to see?

Many versions of Christianity teach an ascetic that "denies the flesh". However, is that not denying the truth about who and what you are at a given moment? Is that not denying that God created you a human being that is in constant flux and change? Wouldn't accepting this fluxuation simply be, being real about ourselves? And does not "truth" speak to each of us in the context of our own lives and experiences? Let us not confuse truth with fact. While facts remain constant, what is so very true for you, might not be true for me. For example, to you pizza might be the greatest food on earth. Is that true for me? No. However, the fact that the average European genome contains 2% to 4% Neanderthal DNA is a constant indicating interbreeding at around 30,000 years ago.

A solid foundation doesn't produce 41,000 denominations.

41000 denominations is not necessarily because of a faulty Bible. There are 1,041,000 reasons why there are different denominations. The more you excuse your concept the more you make grand leaps of assumption. Scary thing to do with your soul I think.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Antipas

It defends on what you consider "reincarnation". Do I believe that every soul is reincarnated and that reincarnation is an experience we all have? No. What I pointed out is that God promised to send, "Elijah the prophet", and how Jesus explained that indeed, John was Elijah the prophet. I only pointed out one absolute case in which reincarnation was a reality. Let me ask you a yes or no question. God said, and I quote:

Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

Now, God promised to send, "Elijah the prophet". Not, "one like unto Elijah the prophet". Did God send "Elijah the prophet" or not? Yes or no?

None of the verses you gave me deny that John as indeed Elijah the prophet. Those verses speak of men being appointed to die and then to face a judgment. None of them prove that God in His sovereign power hasn't or couldn't or even didn't ever reincarnate an individual or select group of individuals.

I want to chime in here.

I believe that John the Baptist was indeed Elijah the prophet reincarnated. Most don't realize that the Jews have an ancient belief that was popular in Christ's day called, "Gilgul Neshamot" or Gilgulei ha Neshamot". In Hebrew, the word gilgul means "cycle" or "wheel" and neshamot is the plural for "souls." Souls are seen to "cycle" through "lives" or "incarnations", being attached to different human bodies over time. In essence, John was not only John, but was also Elijah. Hence, what the Scriptures teach:

Luke 1:17
And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Man is a trichotomy and two aspects of this trichotomy comes into play here. The soul (self conscious mind) of John the Baptist was unique, having grown and developed from birth. But John's spirit (the inner man) was Elijah.

In branches of Judaism that believe in Gilgul this is not called "reincarnation", but rather it is called the, "transmigration of the soul". The terms soul and spirit being interchangeable seeing that they are linked.

Please note, this only takes place in cases involving, "tikkun olam", or, "the healing of the world". Thus a soul is only reincarnated (for lack of a better term) if it has work contributing to the Messianic destiny of the world that would take more than one lifetime. And is that not what the verse in Malachi appears to describe?

Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

So, such acts of reincarnation are therefore an exception to the rule that all men are appointed ONCE to die, and then the judgment. Many expect the Two Witnesses spoken of in the Revelation to be Elijah and Moses (or Enoch). No doubt this would indicate that Elijah's mission relating to "tikkun olam" is yet to be finished. Elijah the prophet will be reincarnated one more time leading to Elijah having lived a total of 3 lifetimes on this earth. Which is in perfect harmony with "Gilgul Neshamot".

So yes, I agree that Elijah was reincarnated and will be once more in the future. However, I strongly disagree if you intend to tell me that all souls experience reincarnation as a general rule.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

41000 denominations is not necessarily because of a faulty Bible. There are 1,041,000 reasons why there are different denominations. The more you excuse your concept the more you make grand leaps of assumption. Scary thing to do with your soul I think.

As I've always said, although the Bible is inerrant, our interpretations of it are not. This is where the Spirit comes into play. The Jesus said,

John 16:13 (KJV)
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:

You see, it takes the Holy Spirit to illuminate the mind of man to truly understand the truths taught in the Bible. Without the Spirit, men guess and interpret as best they can with their limited human intellect. As a result, we have thousands of denominations.

I must also say that this is why even the Bible's revelation is progressive. If one examines Christian doctrine throughout the past 2,000 years many many changes have been made. For example, scholars used to embrace the notion that the Bible permits slavery. However, the Holy Spirit moved on men and women, showing them that the Bible only addressed slavery permissibly because it was a present social construct when the Scriptures were received. However, a thorough application of Christ's Gospel would preclude a Christian from participating in or supporting slavery if given the chance to resist it. There were interpretations about women and head coverings and even the roles of husband and wife. For example, for many centuries the roles of husband and wife were interpreted as being Patriarchal, placing the man in absolute authority of the home. However, the Spirit moved again and soon various men and women of God began to see a more "Complimentarian" view of the roles between husband and wife illustrating that their roles "compliment" one another, with both being of equal cooperative authority in the home. You have the Spirit revealing the reality of the baptism of the Holy Spirit and then even revealing Jesus name baptism in the early 1900's.

Even today... the Spirit is challenging many "traditional" interpretations of Scripture that we so often consider "settled" or as being "dogma". In the end, the church will be a glorious bride prepared for her groom, without spot or wrinkle. However, only those led of the Spirit will be able to embrace the progressive revelation of truth, those governed by intellect will be frozen in their traditional constructs denouncing the Spirit's work as "heresy". Ah, is it not interesting how the more things change, the more they stay the same? lol

Please understand, progressive revelation doesn't mean that the Scriptures are changed. They remain the same as they always have been. It is our understanding of those unchanging Scriptures that changes as the Spirit leads and guides us into all truth.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

As I've always said, although the Bible is inerrant, our interpretations of it are not. This is where the Spirit comes into play. The Jesus said,
leads and guides us into all truth.

Who is to know who is right when twi people claim the Spirit leads them and they contradict each other? For that reason God would not leave us with just Spirit leading and no solid word foundation as well. When it's written it's far more solid a foundation. Too much arbitrary danger otherwise.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by shazeep

For the entire law is fulfilled in one statement: Love your neighbor as yourself.

And that is the great secret to it all. Let me throw another one in here. Behold, I show you a mystery....

1 Peter 4:8 (ESV)
8 Above all, keep loving one another earnestly, since love covers a multitude of sins.

How does that work? Imagine that a destitute mother steals food to feed her starving children and is caught, and overcome with fear, she lies about it. According to the letter of the law, did she sin? Yes. She committed theft and bearing a false witness. However, if we live according to the Spirit instead of the letter of the law, we see that she meant no harm. She only desired to feed her children. Thus the store owner, if walking in the Spirit, would do well to smile, forgive her, and actually give her the food she needs for herself and her children. Reciprocal love covers a multitude of sins.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Who is to know who is right when they claim the Spirit leads them and the contradict each other? For that reason God would not leave us with just Spirit leading and no solid word foundation. When it's written it's far more solid a foundation. Too much arbitrary danger otherwise.

So, does this mean that you and I are in error because we don't force women to wear head coverings, as was the understanding of biblical custom for nearly 1,800 years?

Haven't you read about how text, email, and written communication is some of the worst possible forms of communication?

http://www.people-communicating.com/...unication.html

The Spirit will not only lead and guide one into a proper understanding of truth, but it will also allow for those things which are personal regarding our individual walks, AND bring us to a baseline of fundamental unity. The Spirit has brought my understanding so far as to realize that Love is the law we are held to. None other. A Spirit led love. For love alone fulfills the entire Law. And what unity and peace would we have if we truly embraced that single truth? What man made traditions and standards would crumble under the power of love? Eventually all of them. Thus bringing us into unity. A unity of diversity grounded in love alone.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Who is to know who is right when they claim the Spirit leads them and the contradict each other?

If an understanding is not of God, nothing will become of it. It will fade and die. However, if it is of God, we do well not to fight against it. This takes patience and testing of various understandings and new interpretations.