Those who never heard about Jesus?

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You consistently look at the interaction of people and their disagreements to form your opinion. What you miss is the chance of someone having it right. If that is the case, hypothetically, you would relegate that person to equally being as wrong as the others. You are generalizing and not dealing with the actualities of, let's say, a particular verse of scripture.

I have been changed in MAJOR issues in the bible throughout the years because I make it part of my prayer, likely the most important part -- God, correct me where I am wrong. I know I have believed error and was corrected. I give lots of room for that. Hence, my signature "My thoughts, anyway...."

I'm sure you've seen friends of yours passing you, going the other direction as they felt "corrected".

Am I right?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Antipas

I had an experience. I'm not altogether comfortable talking about it because it brings up such deep emotion. The experienced forever changed my thoughts on death and God. I've seen it. I've seen what many others have seen. I've experienced what they've experienced. It's real. And in that moment the only way I can describe it is it is like a "download" of intuitive knowing. There are no words, it's like telepathy with emotion. It's so hard to explain. It was indescribable peace. A oneness that is beyond words. A realization that is almost instinctual. It is almost as though you are remembering what you knew was true all along, but had forgotten. And it is almost as though we are all going through life desperately trying to remember.



If I tell you that I've swam in the ocean and you've never seen the ocean (or can't remember it) and deny its existence, there's little I can do to prove what it is like. You have to experience it yourself.

I'd like to say again, I'm not here to change your beliefs. They won't change at this time anyway. I'm here to give you a conversation that will serve to help you deal with the reality you are going to one day face so that you can avoid the darkness. I expect you to not believe me, mock me, ridicule me, and laugh at me. It is what I would have done to anyone approaching me saying what I am sharing. But the day will come, and it is unavoidable, when you too will see what I've seen. And your first impulse will be disbelief. You'll even feel anger and like you've been betrayed. Then you'll wonder if it is real and recoil from it, reject it, and even prepare to curse it. It is like pure rage and disappointment. All of these emotions will come in a split second, but this brief second will feel like an eternity. It is almost as though time stands still as you process what is unfolding in front of you. And if you linger there too long you will begin to drift into the darkness. The Light will draw you, but it will not force you. Even the language of that sentence is so difficult. I said, "it", but it isn't an "it", it is a, "he", but it isn't a, "he". It is beyond any description our language can capture. But the Light will draw you. Entire portions of your life will be relieved in a split second, entire decades. Your life literally flashes before your eyes. Sometimes in motion picture, sometimes in just a frozen picture, sometimes rewinding and fast forwarding. You feel the emotions of everyone around you as though their emotions are flowing on a web of some sort that is linking us all. You'll see a you that you've never seen or experienced. You'll see how you were perceived through the eyes of others. Different views of you. Some will bring surprise. Some will bring shame.

I don't want to get into it. Also, because it is so dear to me and so many emotions are connected to what happened, I don't want to see it torn apart under uninformed criticism. Not just because it hurts me. But because I know it will one day hurt the critic. If only I could just "beam" my experience into your head, perhaps you'd understand. But I can't. All I can do is equip you. It will not be like anything you're prepared to experience. In fact, your religious determination and preparation will hinder you more than you realize right now. Just be prepared to embrace the Light. He will not hurt you. He loves you. In fact, you are a part of him. You came out from him and will return to him. You, in a very real way, are him and he is you. As am I, and as is every human being who has ever lived. It is indescribable.



I have no authority. And as I have said, I am not here to convince you. I'm only here to have the conversation. What you glean from what I'm telling you will one day be more important than all the books peddled by modern religion. Do not allow the myths of this world to cause you to fear or hate. Do not become so dogmatic that you'll look GOD in the face and curse the Light.



I don't discount the resurrection. Nor do I judge any who believed in it.



Evidence means nothing when you have an experience.

Your last statement means forensics are forever trumped by eyewitness claims - which is demonstrably false.

But, what happens when my experience leads me to an intuitive knowing that is directly opposite and contrary to another's (your) experience?

Have you ever dropped acid?

A lot of experiences lead people into mistaken ideas... So how does one judge their own or another's experience?

[shazeep]

hmm; "eyewitness" is not the same as "experiencer."

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Let me also note that the Lord has taught me to sincerely pray and seek Him to correct me if I am wrong. I believe that is the part of the Lord's prayer that speaks of leading us not into temptation but delivering us from evil. It corresponds to His words in Matt 7 about the wide and narrow paths and the false prophets. I pray that everytime I pray. And I teach our people to do the same.

i do not doubt you, but unfortunately in light of your other professions of faith, this is perceived as coming out of one side of your mouth. no offense meant; but i remember too vividly being that guy who loved me some Jesus, yet all Catholics were of course going to burn in hell, there was no question. i "knew."

then i found another reflection in beautiful are the feet.
which you no doubt have some rigid explanation for.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Your last statement means forensics are forever trumped by eyewitness claims - which is demonstrably false.

But, what happens when my experience leads me to an intuitive knowing that is directly opposite and contrary to another's (your) experience?

Have you ever dropped acid?

A lot of experiences lead people into mistaken ideas... So how does one judge their own or another's experience?

i have been encouraged at times to go down paths of my own desire in order to perceive the rather painful lesson at the end. Knowing at the beginning roughly what would happen, yet unable to grasp the truth until i put my hand in the fire, so to speak.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Your last statement means forensics are forever trumped by eyewitness claims - which is demonstrably false.

I agree. Maybe I should have worded that better. Perhaps I should have said - Religious dogmas mean nothing when you have an experience.

Thank you for pointing that out.

But, what happens when my experience leads me to an intuitive knowing that is directly opposite and contrary to another's (your) experience?

Who is to say that we must agree? Might your truth be true for you and my truth true for me?

For example, let's assume that your experience leads you to embrace reincarnation. Yet, my intuitive sense lends me to not embrace reincarnation. Should we battle it out over reincarnation, or might there be a reason why you were intuitively led along that understanding? Might the Divine Reality have reincarnation in store for you and not for me? Or might the topic be of more importance for you to examine at this time than it is for me?

Why is there a need to try to prove someone wrong or to force agreement?

Have you ever dropped acid?

No.

A lot of experiences lead people into mistaken ideas... So how does one judge their own or another's experience?

Why is a mistaken idea bad? Do we not learn many lessons from our mistakes? What if a mistaken idea is necessary for one of us to learn a series of very important lessons for our soul's development?

[shazeep]

yes, or even not learn, revealing to others a step ahead who learn from that. ouch tho

[Antipas]

I've talked a lot about my beliefs, but I've not elaborated on my spiritual practices.

I'm Unitarian Universalist. I count myself among those who are professed members of the, Church of the Larger Fellowship. We are scattered throughout the United States. Unitarian Universalism is a liberal religion characterized by a "free and responsible search for truth and meaning". The Unitarian Universalist (UU) Church does not have a creed. Instead UUs are unified by our shared search for spiritual growth. As such, UU congregations or fellowships might include many agnostics, theists, and atheists among their membership. The roots of UU are in liberal Christianity, specifically Unitarianism and Universalism. Unitarian Universalists state that from these traditions comes a deep regard for intellectual freedom and inclusive love. Unitarian Universalists seek inspiration and derive insight from all major world religions.

Seven principles govern Unitarian Universalist practice:

1.) The Inherent worth and dignity of every person.
2.) Justice, equity and compassion in human relations.
3.) Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations.
4.) A free and responsible search for truth and meaning.
5.) The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large.
6.) The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all.
7.) Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

Unitarian Universalists place emphasis on spiritual growth and development. The official statement of Unitarian Universalist principles describes the "sources" upon which current practice is based:

1.) Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;
2.) Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love;
3.) Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;
4.) Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;
5.) Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit.
6.) Spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.

Both Unitarianism and Universalism were originally Christian denominations, and still reference Jewish and Christian texts. However, Unitarian Universalists respect the important religious texts of other religions. UUs believe that all religions can coexist if viewed with the concept of love for one's neighbor and for oneself.

When I have devotion at home I find a nice quite place and light a chalice. I like to say a short prayer or offer a reading when lighting the chalice. The prayer or reading can be from any religious tradition, author, poet, scientist, psychologist, artist, etc.. I then sit in silence for about 15 minutes. I seek to calm my mind and focus on the spiritual. I contemplate and pray about my needs, hurts, hopes, and aspirations. I then reflect on the world and current events. I'm very focused on issues of justice, peace, and the need for compassion. I often contemplate what I should think about matters in the news and my community and what my role should be. I then offer a closing prayer and snuff out the chalice.

The chalice represents the light of truth. It represents the divine flame, the Light, the Source, the One, the All. The lighting of the chalice is my way of creating sacred time and space.

I love to meditate. I also still pray in tongues occasionally.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Antipas

(1) Of course. And let me guess. (2) They must be saved as you have interpreted the Gospel. Am I correct?

(1) I am glad you agree, although you do not BELIEVE;
(2) There it is: proof that you do not SEE! Had you SEEN God's
kingdom (PERCEIVED, UNDERSTOOD, DISCERNED), you would
also know that I do not "interpret" the gospel that saves: I only
follow the writings of the THREE faithful witnesses. If you KNEW
them, you would agree and believe . . . although I am sure you
have HEARD of them.

"Except a man be born again, he cannot SEE . . ."

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

(1) I am glad you agree, although you do not BELIEVE;
(2) There it is: proof that you do not SEE! Had you SEEN God's
kingdom (PERCEIVED, UNDERSTOOD, DISCERNED), you would
also know that I do not "interpret" the gospel that saves: I only
follow the writings of the THREE faithful witnesses. If you KNEW
them, you would agree and believe . . . although I am sure you
have HEARD of them.

"Except a man be born again, he cannot SEE . . ."

Since you're so absolutely correct about what it takes to be saved and to know God (at least, your conceptualization of him), perhaps we should all drop what we have believed and experienced and sit at your feet for further instructions? That way we might SEE. Is that what you desire?

Why should I heed you over Blume?

And perhaps it would be of value to know why Blume might admonish me to heed himself over you....