More On Beards

[jediwill83]

The saddest thing about the coming persecution and darkness is the realization of how insignificant issues like this are and how we allowed the enemy to divide us.

We are going to look back and realize how good we really had it and how much time we wasted judging one another when we should have been supporting and strengthening our brothers and sisters.

Not your brother or sister because of a varience in standard you dont agree with?

You wont have that luxury anymore when the line is drawn in the sand and the real advarsary is revealed.

When that happens, there will be an ever greater appreciation for those called by His name.

I may sound harsh but there are things God showed me about 9 years ago....when I came back to Him it all came flooding back and then two weeks ago I nearly broke down sobbing when God spoke to me and showed me a vision of a church building being dismantled by God and the occupants being driven out into the harvest forcefully.

God said, "I WILL have a church even if I have to drive my children before Me."

Take it as you will...call me crazy...ask me what steps IM taking as a way of deflecting...I dont care...I just feel something coming...I feel a urgency and a seriousness...a need to truly prioritize.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

The saddest thing about the coming persecution and darkness is the realization of how insignificant issues like this are and how we allowed the enemy to divide us.

We are going to look back and realize how good we really had it and how much time we wasted judging one another when we should have been supporting and strengthening our brothers and sisters.

Not your brother or sister because of a varience in standard you dont agree with?

You wont have that luxury anymore when the line is drawn in the sand and the real advarsary is revealed.

When that happens, there will be an ever greater appreciation for those called by His name.

I may sound harsh but there are things God showed me about 9 years ago....when I came back to Him it all came flooding back and then two weeks ago I nearly broke down sobbing when God spoke to me and showed me a vision of a church building being dismantled by God and the occupants being driven out into the harvest forcefully.

God said, "I WILL have a church even if I have to drive my children before Me."

Take it as you will...call me crazy...ask me what steps IM taking as a way of deflecting...I dont care...I just feel something coming...I feel a urgency and a seriousness...a need to truly prioritize.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by n david

But there is no prohibition against tv, theatre, sporting events, etc. None. And yet most generally accept a church being against those things.


No, but most guys with beards are filled with vanity and pride. Those are sins. Look at some posts in this thread and you'll see vanity and pride. Guys don't grow beards for functionality, they grow them for vanity. They keep them trim and neat out of vanity and pride.

you comb your hair out of vanity and pride.
you shower out of vanity and pride.
You shine your shoes out of vanity and pride.

[n david]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

you comb your hair out of vanity and pride.
you shower out of vanity and pride.
You shine your shoes out of vanity and pride.

Nope, no hair to comb. I shower to keep clean, it's not a vanity or pride thing. And I don't shine my shoes, not since I was a teenager. My father had a really nice shoe shine kit with different brushes you would attach to a motor wand and different dyes. Used to make a mess trying to shine my shoes.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

you comb your hair out of vanity and pride.
you shower out of vanity and pride.
You shine your shoes out of vanity and pride.

Taking a bath is vanity and pride?

Good God from Zion.

My dear brother, when you use toilet paper is that also vanity and pride?

[shag]

Originally Posted by n david

But there is no prohibition against tv, theatre, sporting events, etc. None. And yet most generally accept a church being against those things.


No, but most guys with beards are filled with vanity and pride. Those are sins. Look at some posts in this thread and you'll see vanity and pride. Guys don't grow beards for functionality, they grow them for vanity. They keep them trim and neat out of vanity and pride.

To carelessly broad brush with such a statement, based on your personal opinion, only reflects the vanity and pride in your own heart.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by shag

To carelessly broad brush with such a statement, based on your personal opinion, only reflects the vanity and pride in your own heart.

That actually doesn't make any sense.

It could be turned around to indicate that you have the vanity and pride because you disagree with him.

Everything we discuss stems from a personal opinion, we then evaluate the opinions whether they have any merit. Was he really being careless? Is his statement just his own personal opinion? Or did he come about it through years of careful observation? Yet, still I cannot see how anything he posted reflects vanity and pride. I got an idea, why don't we all just agree with everything that we post. No negative responses, we will salute everything run up the flag pole. Just so we don't display any vanity and pride.




Shag do you go to Planet Fitness?

[shag]

For one to broad brush Christian men, whether they have beards, or whether they do not, as either being vain or prideful, is very foolish, and prideful, in my opinion.

But I'll not make the mistake of argueing with you over it, Elder Evangelist Preacher Teacher D. Benincasa.

carry on....

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Yet, he is still telling these women to do something based on his own preferences. He believes the women who are not wearing dresses should wear a dress next time they come to service, because as you have posted they're immodest. It is now made into a religious issue based on the leader's idea of what is modest.

There you go. The women in the congregation who wear pants are immodest and are of low degree. Not coming up to the "highest degree" of Christain standard of modesty? Therefore if they come to practice the religion at the religious center of gathering, they should get dressed up in religious robes. But, you don't see that as legalism, because he doesn't tell them they are going to hell?

Of course they do, because he is teaching them legalism.

I know the man. He openly states that it is his opinion and preference. He doesn't state that women who wear pants are any less spiritual, or that the Bible would condemn them for being immodest. He openly expresses that it is merely his opinion. It isn't regarded as a heaven or hell issue. Therefore, it's not legalism. Legalism would demand obedience to a law or tradition in order to avoid Hell.

You just post to see what kind of reaction you get from people. Sad.

Now, so far the conversation has been logical. But here's where it goes South. Watch what you do, it's almost a pattern. In the statement above, you go personal. Now you launch into a bombastic, verbose, condemnation of something entirely made up in your head. Why? Because it is YOU who is merely trying to get a reaction out of people. Let's take a slow and calculated look at what you wrote....

But anyway, treated badly? Why should he or anyone else treat them badly? He is telling them to wear saffron robes, smear yellow, with a red dot on their forehead. They are told to wear a wig instead of a veil, they are told to wear the hijab before Jumu'ah at the masjid. Bro, that's legalism, that is doing something religious but not believing in it.

Where was any of that said? Nowhere. Here is where you are trying to provoke a reaction. In fact, the pastor I'm talking about doesn't "tell" them to wear anything. While he expresses his opinion that dresses and skirts are more modest, he doesn't condemn pants on a woman. And modesty, in case you forgot, is indeed taught in Scripture. Since Scripture doesn't definitively lay down measurements or rules for modesty, the church's approach to modesty can be flexible. For example, what follows are four different ways in which modesty can be handled in the church:

- It can be left to individual conscience, relying primarily on the the individual to determine what they feel is modest.
- It can be based on consensus, the local body defining what they believe to be modest.
- It can be based on pastoral guidance and opinion (as with this circumstance).
- It can be based on a rigid legalistic mandate that is a codified tradition of man (what we see in many congregations and organizations).

There is a big difference between a pastor telling a woman that he believes dresses and skirts are more modest than pants and a pastor that tells women that they are wearing an abomination to God based on an OT law. The modesty teacher can have tolerance for those women who disagree with his opinion. But the one who believes that pants on a woman is an abomination has no such flexibility. He must demand that she repent and put on a dress or skirt. And failure to repent implies sinful rebellion, and thus pants become a Heaven or Hell issue. Of the two examples here, one man is principled. The other is a legalist.
[INDENT]This is what I have been saying over and over again. Telling people you love them and not loving them is legalism. Telling your father you are going out to the field and NEVER doing it is legalism. Yet, the son who said no but went anyway later was considered the true believer. You think just because they are threatened with hell it's legalism? Then you haven't a clue to what legalism really is, it is religious worship as going through the motions without having any true connections with the ONE you are supposed to be connected to? Not the man in the pulpit telling you that he would like everyone to wear white.[/QUOTE]

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary:
Definition of legalism
1: strict, literal, or excessive conformity to the law or to a religious or moral code •the institutionalized legalism that restricts free choice
2: a legal term or rule

Legalism can be "expanded" to include other issues, such as religion without relationship. However, such definitions are expansive, not essential.

Also forget your arguments about preachers who have no Bible but ask men to shave. You just vindicated those hombres. Because if it is ok, for your preacher to ask women to dress like Emma Bontrager before entering his temple. Therefore in the very same act a brother can ask a man to shave his beard off. Because of whatever reason he so chooses.

I disagree. There is New Testament Scripture admonishing modest apparel for believers, especially when gathered together (the veil admonition being a cultural example from their time). But when dealing with beards, there is absolutely NO New Testament Scripture that addresses the need to govern facial hair in any manner.

You're comparing applies to oranges in order to find a justification for preachers who ask men to shave.

It isn't about anything short of a religious leader telling people they need to wear the big buffalo hat when they come to the water buffalo lodge.

A pastor has New Testament backing when it comes to requesting that congregants be dressed modestly:

Matthew 5:28
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

1 Timothy 2:9
In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

1 Peter 3:3-4
3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

In addition, he doesn't say that they "need" to wear anything. They are free to wear whatever they choose. However, since the Bible admonishes modesty, he has informed the congregation of what he believes is the most modest of apparel.

It is the highest level of Christian discipline? But it isn't in their heart?

Those who have modesty in their heart will be modest no matter what they wear.

Bro, if legalism was a semi truck going down I-95 in the dark and hit you dead in the face, you still wouldn't know what legalism really means.

Creative insult. I'll give you two extra points.

Of course, because he meets whatever requirement you have for the day. If he was to tell you to do something before entering his building, then we would see your evaluation change.

You're failing to see that I acknowledge that the Bible gives a pastor a right to address modesty, seeing that Scripture admonishes us to be a modest people. I do not acknowledge that the Bible gives a pastor a right to address facial hair, because there is absolutely no New Testament text to base such a position upon.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

thats a horribly constructed argument.

you've literally become the Pharisee smiting your breast, praying loudly that you thank God you arent like the bearded publican in the corner.

that accusation you made has literally no merit because you paint with a ginormous brush only presenting "evidence" of the few bearded people on the forum being "prideful" therefore it must apply to everyone with a beard.

There is NOTHING wrong with liking the way you look.

If I enjoy the fact that I have clean, white, cavity free straight teeth is that pride?

Should I stop brushing to save my soul from hell?

I know plenty of humble, non pretentious people with beards but according to your reasoning I must reject my knowledge and experience and stamp them as prideful because of facial hair.

Maybe people need to stop making silly non Biblical rules and trying to enforce them by shaming and threatening people into obedience.