Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Originalist

From 1993-2010 I was a member of a particular UPC. In 2007, I happily witnessed the pastor announce to the congregation that he had renounced the pre-trib doctrine after further prayer and study. He is solidly post-trib.

[n david]

If nothing else, the thread has caused me to read more about the end times and the various beliefs on eschatology. So there's that.

The reason I've avoided studying it and debating it is because of all the folks who have read Revelation and have put dates and current events to the scriptures.

I previously posted about disagreements with my father. I love my father. I do not take to people questioning his walk with God or salvation, as seen in this thread. My disagreements with him, and my avoidance of end time study is, ironically, because of his love for end time study and his like and use of Irvin Baxter's magazine and studies. My father will talk eschatology and end times for hours, even at 84. He believes in dispensationalism and, from the last we had any discussion on it (well over a decade ago), believes in a pre-trib rapture.

Unfortunately, his fondness of all things related to the End Time Magazine and Baxter has led him to events such as Y2K. Remember that? The world was going to end. Economies were going to collapse. Electric grids and banking systems were going to fail and we were supposed to experience massive riots and martial law.

I was in my early 20s in the build up to Y2K. When it passed without so much as a light bulb flickering, I decided these studies and people trying to decipher future events were a waste of time. My avoidance isn't laziness or fear or moral relevance. My decision to avoid the issue was based on what I believed was more and less important per scripture.

Making disciples is the most important role of a believer. Debating one's position on eschatology and the end times is not. Now, a believer must believe in the coming judgment and the end of days. But belief of when it happens is not something upon which a believer's salvation hinges.

"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain."

Calling names, damning and condemning people over a personal interpretation of scripture, which has no bearing on salvation, is causing contention and is unprofitable. It's also mostly out of vanity (though unconsciously) that we write these long posts, boasting of what we know and why our opinion is better than anyone else's opinion, why it's more biblical, etc.

[Esaias]

Getting back to the original point of the thread....

Some persons have taken exception to the claim that the pre trib rapture teaching is heretical. I made that claim, and offered proof of the claim. But nobody has offered to disprove it, nobody has bothered to attempt to show that rapturism is indeed NOT heretical. (Sean has been the only one trying to prove a pre trib rapture but alas he has failed completely to do so.)

It has also been suggested that pre trib rapture doctrine, while erroneous, nevertheless has no bearing on one's salvation. Yet, again, nobody wants to back up the claim.

Now that's all fine and dandy (nobody HAS to prove their claims if they don't feel up to it) but it sure looks like either apathy or inability. I'm guessing the latter.

I'd like to see someone demonstrate from the Bible that one can believe heresies and yet still be saved.

[Amanah]

here is another OP defending post trib

I declare holy war on the erroneous "Pre-Tribulation Rapture" teaching. It is the majority opinion of modern Christianity, but never in history did the majority opinion take precedence over the written Word of God.

"God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged," Romans 3:4.

You will be JUDGED by Almighty God for all your sayings, and if your sayings have contradicted HIS WORD, you will not overcome. You will only be justified if you have taken GOD'S position.

There is NOTHING OPTIONAL about what we believe about the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. We do not have the luxury of interpreting scriptures any way we want to. It is NOT ACCEPTABLE to offer multiple alternatives to Bible prophecies. It is foolish to believe that it is not a life-or-death, Heaven-or-Hell issue. Those who say, "I'm PAN-TRIB!! I believe it will all PAN out!" are mockers. They mock the TRUTH of the matter.

The pre-trib heresy casually dismisses hundreds of prophecies that pertain to the last days. The pre-trib heresy leads men to believe that they have absolutely nothing to concern themselves with because Jesus will RAPTURE them out of the world before any of these prophesied events come upon the earth. Well, that is a lie. That is not true. Jesus will NOT rapture us out of here before the great falling away, the Confirmation of the Covenant, the building of the Third Temple, the rise of the Man of Sin, the 144,000 sealed, the Abomination of Desolation, the Two Witnesses appear, the Mark of the Beast, the Great Tribulation, the Sixth Trumpet War, and many other prophecies.

"ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be PERFECT [complete], throughly furnished unto all good works," 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

The Pre-Trib "doctrine" leaves an entire generation mentally, physically and spiritually unprepared for the horrifying events that the Bible is explicitly clear will soon come upon the earth.

For that, and many other reasons, I will viciously fight against the errors that are deluding and deceiving this generation.

I know that I am exposing myself to the wrath of every Pre-Tribber on earth, but I am already accustomed to the WRATH of TRINITARIANS who hate me, and ETERNAL SECURITY CALVINISTS who hate me, and HYPER-GRACE, UNCONDITIONAL LOVE people who hate me, and ANTI-PENTECOSTALS who hate me, CESSATIONISTS who hate me, ECUMENICALS who hate me, ROMAN CATHOLICS who hate me, and a whole bunch of other people who just hate me for general purposes.

When you stand up for BIBLE Truth, you invariably must incur the wrath of any and all who do not subscribe to Bible Truth. That just goes with the territory, like it or not. In sober reality, the detractors have no more right to preach their position than I have a God-given right AND responsibility to preach what I see in the Word. "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin," James 4:17.

We must not be afraid of the faces of men.The fight is of the same order as ONENESS vs TRINITY, Titles vs. the NAME of JESUS, sinner's prayer vs. New Birth, "accepting Christ" vs. Holy Ghost baptism, Legalism vs. Holiness, and more. We used to declare war on those battlefronts, (although fewer and fewer now fight as they should for those truths, too.). TRUTH must be declared and defended until Jesus comes.

So, I learned long ago to just stand for the Truth, and let the chips fall where they may. In sober reality, the detractors have no more right to preach their position than I have a God-given right AND responsibility to preach what I see in the Word. We must not be afraid of the faces of men.

Sometimes I feel like an old Vietnam vet. I would be happy if someone would give me my discharge papers, but I know that is not likely to happen anytime soon, so I just stay on the battleground and try my best to fight like a good soldier. "Is there not a cause?" TRUTH is the cause.



http://kenraggio.blogspot.com/2015/0...-doctrine.html

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Amanah

here is another OP defending post trib

I declare holy war on the erroneous "Pre-Tribulation Rapture" teaching. It is the majority opinion of modern Christianity, but never in history did the majority opinion take precedence over the written Word of God.

"God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged," Romans 3:4.

You will be JUDGED by Almighty God for all your sayings, and if your sayings have contradicted HIS WORD, you will not overcome. You will only be justified if you have taken GOD'S position.

There is NOTHING OPTIONAL about what we believe about the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. We do not have the luxury of interpreting scriptures any way we want to. It is NOT ACCEPTABLE to offer multiple alternatives to Bible prophecies. It is foolish to believe that it is not a life-or-death, Heaven-or-Hell issue. Those who say, "I'm PAN-TRIB!! I believe it will all PAN out!" are mockers. They mock the TRUTH of the matter.

The pre-trib heresy casually dismisses hundreds of prophecies that pertain to the last days. The pre-trib heresy leads men to believe that they have absolutely nothing to concern themselves with because Jesus will RAPTURE them out of the world before any of these prophesied events come upon the earth. Well, that is a lie. That is not true. Jesus will NOT rapture us out of here before the great falling away, the Confirmation of the Covenant, the building of the Third Temple, the rise of the Man of Sin, the 144,000 sealed, the Abomination of Desolation, the Two Witnesses appear, the Mark of the Beast, the Great Tribulation, the Sixth Trumpet War, and many other prophecies.

"ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be PERFECT [complete], throughly furnished unto all good works," 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

The Pre-Trib "doctrine" leaves an entire generation mentally, physically and spiritually unprepared for the horrifying events that the Bible is explicitly clear will soon come upon the earth.

For that, and many other reasons, I will viciously fight against the errors that are deluding and deceiving this generation.

I know that I am exposing myself to the wrath of every Pre-Tribber on earth, but I am already accustomed to the WRATH of TRINITARIANS who hate me, and ETERNAL SECURITY CALVINISTS who hate me, and HYPER-GRACE, UNCONDITIONAL LOVE people who hate me, and ANTI-PENTECOSTALS who hate me, CESSATIONISTS who hate me, ECUMENICALS who hate me, ROMAN CATHOLICS who hate me, and a whole bunch of other people who just hate me for general purposes.

When you stand up for BIBLE Truth, you invariably must incur the wrath of any and all who do not subscribe to Bible Truth. That just goes with the territory, like it or not. In sober reality, the detractors have no more right to preach their position than I have a God-given right AND responsibility to preach what I see in the Word. "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin," James 4:17.

We must not be afraid of the faces of men.The fight is of the same order as ONENESS vs TRINITY, Titles vs. the NAME of JESUS, sinner's prayer vs. New Birth, "accepting Christ" vs. Holy Ghost baptism, Legalism vs. Holiness, and more. We used to declare war on those battlefronts, (although fewer and fewer now fight as they should for those truths, too.). TRUTH must be declared and defended until Jesus comes.

So, I learned long ago to just stand for the Truth, and let the chips fall where they may. In sober reality, the detractors have no more right to preach their position than I have a God-given right AND responsibility to preach what I see in the Word. We must not be afraid of the faces of men.

Sometimes I feel like an old Vietnam vet. I would be happy if someone would give me my discharge papers, but I know that is not likely to happen anytime soon, so I just stay on the battleground and try my best to fight like a good soldier. "Is there not a cause?" TRUTH is the cause.



http://kenraggio.blogspot.com/2015/0...-doctrine.html

All well and good but I think we need to be careful. If Apostolic Granny professed a belief in a pre-trib rapture, that is not condemning. She believed her Lord was returning and wanted to be able to meet him with a clean conscience. Chances are she left such doctrinal issues up to the preachers and simply tried to live a life pleasing to God.

But for those preaching pre-trib in a Sean-fashion, they're in trouble. That is why few should seek to be teachers, because there is a greater condemnation.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Getting back to the original point of the thread....

Some persons have taken exception to the claim that the pre trib rapture teaching is heretical. I made that claim, and offered proof of the claim. But nobody has offered to disprove it, nobody has bothered to attempt to show that rapturism is indeed NOT heretical. (Sean has been the only one trying to prove a pre trib rapture but alas he has failed completely to do so.)

It has also been suggested that pre trib rapture doctrine, while erroneous, nevertheless has no bearing on one's salvation. Yet, again, nobody wants to back up the claim.

Now that's all fine and dandy (nobody HAS to prove their claims if they don't feel up to it) but it sure looks like either apathy or inability. I'm guessing the latter.

I'd like to see someone demonstrate from the Bible that one can believe heresies and yet still be saved.

No, you haven't offered proof of your claim.

What you've offered is your personal opinion, mixed with scriptures you believe support your claim. There isn't one scripture which states what you claim.

You're no different than the wackos who condemn men to hell over wearing a short sleeved or colored shirt.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You guys still silent on my view that says before Christi comes the world will wage war against the church, thereby refuting your escapist accusation about my view?

Come on, guys. ' Fess up.

MTD made that accusation three times now, and you joined in, Originalist. And with MTD, I responded with this note and suffered short term memory loss and forgot I even said it. And he still accuses with it. You look like you're going to bury it again and forget again, only to accuse the same lie in a few weeks or so.

Your view could be said to be the view of all groups, leaders. and teachers. Anyone who reads the Bible very much knows that the world is making war with the Church.

I was once fellowshipping with a worldwide group called "The Ceylon Pentecostal Mission. There were actually martyrs in this group. I met various believers who had suffered violent persecution in New York City and in Jerusalem.

And yet they are very strict pre tribs. Admittedly there are pre tribs like these who I think would die for Christ. Yet a lot has to do with the other teaching they get. In the Ceylon Pentecostal Mission they teach denying self and taking the cross daily. This makes a difference.

So yes there are groups who teach the world is always going to persecute Christians to the degree they can. But that is not the same as what Jesus taught about the great tribulation.

He said if he did not shorten the days no one would be left alive. So it will be great persecution against saints but also a time of great disasters coming on the Earth. And from my view it seems there is a great deal of information given in scripture that is specific to the end times.

To me the partial preterist view holds water over the long haul because there are things Christ said that have come to pass. But to fast forward through the book of Revelation and put it all on events around Jerusalen 2000 years ago leaves my spirit feeling flat compared to the vast body of scripture that truly has not been fulfilled.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Amanah

here is another OP defending post trib

I declare holy war on the erroneous "Pre-Tribulation Rapture" teaching. It is the majority opinion of modern Christianity, but never in history did the majority opinion take precedence over the written Word of God.

"God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged," Romans 3:4.

You will be JUDGED by Almighty God for all your sayings, and if your sayings have contradicted HIS WORD, you will not overcome. You will only be justified if you have taken GOD'S position.

There is NOTHING OPTIONAL about what we believe about the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. We do not have the luxury of interpreting scriptures any way we want to. It is NOT ACCEPTABLE to offer multiple alternatives to Bible prophecies. It is foolish to believe that it is not a life-or-death, Heaven-or-Hell issue. Those who say, "I'm PAN-TRIB!! I believe it will all PAN out!" are mockers. They mock the TRUTH of the matter.

The pre-trib heresy casually dismisses hundreds of prophecies that pertain to the last days. The pre-trib heresy leads men to believe that they have absolutely nothing to concern themselves with because Jesus will RAPTURE them out of the world before any of these prophesied events come upon the earth. Well, that is a lie. That is not true. Jesus will NOT rapture us out of here before the great falling away, the Confirmation of the Covenant, the building of the Third Temple, the rise of the Man of Sin, the 144,000 sealed, the Abomination of Desolation, the Two Witnesses appear, the Mark of the Beast, the Great Tribulation, the Sixth Trumpet War, and many other prophecies.

"ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be PERFECT [complete], throughly furnished unto all good works," 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

The Pre-Trib "doctrine" leaves an entire generation mentally, physically and spiritually unprepared for the horrifying events that the Bible is explicitly clear will soon come upon the earth.

For that, and many other reasons, I will viciously fight against the errors that are deluding and deceiving this generation.

I know that I am exposing myself to the wrath of every Pre-Tribber on earth, but I am already accustomed to the WRATH of TRINITARIANS who hate me, and ETERNAL SECURITY CALVINISTS who hate me, and HYPER-GRACE, UNCONDITIONAL LOVE people who hate me, and ANTI-PENTECOSTALS who hate me, CESSATIONISTS who hate me, ECUMENICALS who hate me, ROMAN CATHOLICS who hate me, and a whole bunch of other people who just hate me for general purposes.

When you stand up for BIBLE Truth, you invariably must incur the wrath of any and all who do not subscribe to Bible Truth. That just goes with the territory, like it or not. In sober reality, the detractors have no more right to preach their position than I have a God-given right AND responsibility to preach what I see in the Word. "Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin," James 4:17.

We must not be afraid of the faces of men.The fight is of the same order as ONENESS vs TRINITY, Titles vs. the NAME of JESUS, sinner's prayer vs. New Birth, "accepting Christ" vs. Holy Ghost baptism, Legalism vs. Holiness, and more. We used to declare war on those battlefronts, (although fewer and fewer now fight as they should for those truths, too.). TRUTH must be declared and defended until Jesus comes.

So, I learned long ago to just stand for the Truth, and let the chips fall where they may. In sober reality, the detractors have no more right to preach their position than I have a God-given right AND responsibility to preach what I see in the Word. We must not be afraid of the faces of men.

Sometimes I feel like an old Vietnam vet. I would be happy if someone would give me my discharge papers, but I know that is not likely to happen anytime soon, so I just stay on the battleground and try my best to fight like a good soldier. "Is there not a cause?" TRUTH is the cause.

http://kenraggio.blogspot.com/2015/0...-doctrine.html

For only $575 per person, you too could join Ken on a "Premium Prophecy Cruise" to Cozumel, Mexico next March! But wait! Before you get on the cruise, you need to read his book -- only $25! Ken says: "Here is one of the most explosive books ever written on the prophecies of the Bible." "You NEED to know what is in this book."

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Sean

Very well spoken Michael, but your proposal is not Biblical.

No pre-tribber thinks they will not face at least the beginning of the Tribulation.....



So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.



The Great Tribulation will be knocking at the door when the Bridegroom calls His virgins.

They will all be asleep(unworthy), but those that have not let the oil run out of their lamps(Spirit led), will be removed.

In the case of the flood, the water that carried Noah to safety(salvation) destroyed the lost.

In the case of the return of the Bridegroom, the Lord that takes His church to safety is the destroyer of the lost.....




16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?



I hope that you can see the 2 fold aspect of the coming of Christ someday, bro.

I started my walk as a pre trib Sean so I have already been where you want me to be.

What I wonder is about this:

In the case of the flood, the water that carried Noah to safety(salvation) destroyed the lost.

Dont you see that Noah did not need to be taken to Heaven to be preserved by YAH? He was still right here on Earth even tho it was destroyed. Cant get much worse than the world being destroyed! And yet YAH did not remove Noah from the Earth but rather showed his power to deliver by keeping him here all the way through the flood.

Then the other thing where pre trib fails dramatically is that when the flood came IT WAS TO LATE FOR ANYONE TO BE SAVED!

Everyone else on Earth died. And yet........second chance salvation is THE ONLY BASIS whereby the pre trib rapture is allowed to stand.

It absolutely fails the test using the days of Noah as a type. Jesus did not give the type to give hope to sinners once he comes they can still be saved.

The warning he gave was if you miss his coming THE DOOR IS SHUT!

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Revelation 20:4-5
[4] Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. [5] The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. [Rev. 20:4-5, emphasis added]

That this is taking place after the Tribulation is obvious. People are sitting on thrones reigning with Jesus. Both sides are in agreement at this point. But what to me seems equally clear is that the Bible states this is the first resurrection. If the rapture is to be preceded by the resurrection of believers (1 Thess. 4:15-17; 1 Cor. 15:52), and this is the first resurrection, then the rapture must be after the Tribulation.

So clear.