Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Amanah

it seems there is a movement in the Apostolic Church to a belief in Post Trib Rapture.

I hope thats true. Eventually they will all teach it. For now I would like to find just one Church close enough to me to attend. As far as I know the closest Jesus name Church to me is about 8 hours.

[mfblume]

Post trib is most reasonable compared to historicism and pre trib, for sure.
It just lacks cohesion between biblical manners of speech, the symbolism in Revelation and the focus on the cross.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Your view could be said to be the view of all groups, leaders. and teachers. Anyone who reads the Bible very much knows that the world is making war with the Church.

Incorrect. Revelation says all nations will come against the church. That has never happened yet. You could not have church if that was the case today. But it will come when a wholesale attack on the church will occur.

So yes there are groups who teach the world is always going to persecute Christians to the degree they can. But that is not the same as what Jesus taught about the great tribulation.

Jesus taught it would occur in the same generation when the temple was destroyed, with some standing listening to him who would still be alive when it happened. And he taught plainly it was for Jerusalem and Judaea. Otherwise, he would not have restricted his words to only those in Jerusalem and Judaea who had to flee.

Futurists cannot fully agree with those words in Matt 23-24 since they cannot reason how the temple destroyed in AD70 is among the events listed in the days the generation he spoke to would experience those events.

My view doe snot teach the world was always against the church. It teaches ALL nations, exempting none, would be against it, which has never happened yet.

He said if he did not shorten the days no one would be left alive.

He did not say that. he said no flesh would be saved. His words dealt with Jerusalem and Judaea, since it was those folks he instructed to flee. No Jew would have been left alive including believers.

So it will be great persecution against saints but also a time of great disasters coming on the Earth. And from my view it seems there is a great deal of information given in scripture that is specific to the end times.

That is due to reading the passages with lenses that do not consider the mannerisms in language used in prophecies, such as the words about Christ's first coming being a shoot from a root.

To me the partial preterist view holds water over the long haul because there are things Christ said that have come to pass. But to fast forward through the book of Revelation and put it all on events around Jerusalen 2000 years ago leaves my spirit feeling flat compared to the vast body of scripture that truly has not been fulfilled.

When we cannot see Revelation's position on the basis of the rest of the bible's words on the issue, and realize it's SIGNIFYING those same things, and literalize it into a movie of future events, your view and others are the result. But when the cross is centralized, as it should be, and one realizes that no great crime could occur than His own people crucifying Him and adulterating against Him with the beast of the day, then the greatest trib fits the greatest crime,. All other views trivialize the cross to something less severe than it was. the \tribulation fist the crime.

Your view has a place to flee to, whereas mine does not. No where on earth will the church be welcomed. That's when the resurrection occurs and no one is left behind for anything, as all go to the white throne judgment. Your great trib is not as great as this one will be. But we are safe in resurrection-anticipating faith.

Revelation 20:8-9 KJV And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. (9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by n david

If nothing else, the thread has caused me to read more about the end times and the various beliefs on eschatology. So there's that.

The reason I've avoided studying it and debating it is because of all the folks who have read Revelation and have put dates and current events to the scriptures.

I previously posted about disagreements with my father. I love my father. I do not take to people questioning his walk with God or salvation, as seen in this thread. My disagreements with him, and my avoidance of end time study is, ironically, because of his love for end time study and his like and use of Irvin Baxter's magazine and studies. My father will talk eschatology and end times for hours, even at 84. He believes in dispensationalism and, from the last we had any discussion on it (well over a decade ago), believes in a pre-trib rapture.

Unfortunately, his fondness of all things related to the End Time Magazine and Baxter has led him to events such as Y2K. Remember that? The world was going to end. Economies were going to collapse. Electric grids and banking systems were going to fail and we were supposed to experience massive riots and martial law.

I was in my early 20s in the build up to Y2K. When it passed without so much as a light bulb flickering, I decided these studies and people trying to decipher future events were a waste of time. My avoidance isn't laziness or fear or moral relevance. My decision to avoid the issue was based on what I believed was more and less important per scripture.

Making disciples is the most important role of a believer. Debating one's position on eschatology and the end times is not. Now, a believer must believe in the coming judgment and the end of days. But belief of when it happens is not something upon which a believer's salvation hinges.

"But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain."

Calling names, damning and condemning people over a personal interpretation of scripture, which has no bearing on salvation, is causing contention and is unprofitable. It's also mostly out of vanity (though unconsciously) that we write these long posts, boasting of what we know and why our opinion is better than anyone else's opinion, why it's more biblical, etc.

As you likely can tell, I have taught some eschatology and am fascinated with the book of Revelation.

The thing that keeps me interested is to let these events in the book manifest themselves in their time, and not to buy into sensationalism.

Sensationalism causes folks to become disgruntled with the minister AND his Bible when it fails.

My experience with Baxter's "end times" chart was a complete flop, 20 years ago, after only 1 study(I was conned into teaching it by my bosses' wife). I was humiliated when a teenage girl in the group called out an error on the chart. I threw that thing away, never to look at sensationalism again.....LOL


FYI...Baxter is post.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Originalist

All well and good but I think we need to be careful. If Apostolic Granny professed a belief in a pre-trib rapture, that is not condemning. She believed her Lord was returning and wanted to be able to meet him with a clean conscience. Chances are she left such doctrinal issues up to the preachers and simply tried to live a life pleasing to God.

But for those preaching pre-trib in a Sean-fashion, they're in trouble. That is why few should seek to be teachers, because there is a greater condemnation.

Some pal you are today...shucks.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by n david

No, you haven't offered proof of your claim.

What you've offered is your personal opinion, mixed with scriptures you believe support your claim. There isn't one scripture which states what you claim.

You're no different than the wackos who condemn men to hell over wearing a short sleeved or colored shirt.

Esaias is likely 60 feet underground in his anti-christ proof bunker giving orders to the other guys on this forum.

He has declared war on the antichrist, instead of antichrist declaring war on him.

He is the leader of the antipretrib, anti-antichrist movement.

He is saying to antichrist "bring it on"....LOL

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I started my walk as a pre trib Sean so I have already been where you want me to be.

What I wonder is about this:



Dont you see that Noah did not need to be taken to Heaven to be preserved by YAH? He was still right here on Earth even tho it was destroyed. Cant get much worse than the world being destroyed! And yet YAH did not remove Noah from the Earth but rather showed his power to deliver by keeping him here all the way through the flood.

Then the other thing where pre trib fails dramatically is that when the flood came IT WAS TO LATE FOR ANYONE TO BE SAVED!

Everyone else on Earth died. And yet........second chance salvation is THE ONLY BASIS whereby the pre trib rapture is allowed to stand.

It absolutely fails the test using the days of Noah as a type. Jesus did not give the type to give hope to sinners once he comes they can still be saved.

The warning he gave was if you miss his coming THE DOOR IS SHUT!

Michael....God in Gen., shut the door on the Ark.

God shut the door in Matt 25 and LEFT half the virgins behind.

God did not take the bad virgins, but the good ones.

You do see that, right?


It was in the exact same discourse as Matt 24, right?


One taken...the other left.

5 virgins taken...5 left.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So clear.

Yes, you and your loved ones will clearly be beheaded.

Look in the mirror and get used to your headless body.



http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=510



Mike..."gulp!".

[mfblume]

Sean, you still here?

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Originalist

It is. Chapter 6 of Revelation is an overview, just as Genesis 1 is an overview of creation with more details coming in later chapters of Genesis. If you insist that the events in Revelation 6 are at the beginning of the Trib, then there would not be anything left for the Anti-Christ to rule.

Nah, more events after chapter 6. Your calculations are incorrect.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Yes indeed. But it also says "a man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject, knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." (Titus 3:10-11).

Yes, Apostle Esaias.