How Do You Ride a Horse, a Cloud, and a Throne?

[TK Burk]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I never said that. I said the text in Acts 1 is not apocalyptic imagery but descriptive narrative.



I never said the OT does not prophesy of a time when the Lord would bring forth an apocalyptic event. And yes, I am sure that I never said such a thing. So (one) explanation is that you have completely misunderstood my words.

The problem is the passage in Acts 1 is an eyewitness account of an historical happening, and not an apocalyptic vision nor a prophetic monologue using OT imagery.

I spoke about the passage, ie the "text" in Acts 1. I said of that passage, that is to say, concerning that text, that it is an eyewitness account of an historical happening, ie a descriptive narrative. I said concerning that text that the text is not an apocalyptic vision - nobody was in a trance or seeing symbolic visions, there is nothing in the text to suggest any such thing. I said the particular text under consideration is not a prophetic monologue using OT imagery, which is obvious as it is simply Luke recording what the disciples experienced.

I never said the return of Jesus would not be an apocalyptic event, I did not say the OT does not describe apocalyptic events. I said the text in Acts 1 is not apocalyptic imagery, symbolic visions, or prophetic monologue using OT symbolism, but instead is simple descriptive narrative.

But you cannot separate the "coming" from what is to happen during that coming. Thus, the "manner" applies to what would happen during that time.

[JamesGlen]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

The Bible does not compartmentalize its message in neat chapters and verses. Man did that, not God. So, my answer to you would be by verses such as what's found in Acts 2. Here's what Peter said there:

"And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation." (Act 2:40)

This message to save yourself from "THIS rebellious generation" is no different a message than the disciples in Acts 1 had already heard in verses such as these: Matthew 11:16, Matthew 12:41, Matthew 12:42, Matthew 23:36, Matthew 24:34; Mark 8:12, Mark 13:30, Luke 11:30, Luke 11:31, Luke 11:32, Luke 11:50, Luke 11:51, Luke 17:25, Luke 21:32.

The disciples knew Jesus prophesied judgment was to come to their generation. So, when they heard the Heavenly message about the "manner" in which He would return in Acts 1, they applied that to what they had been taught. To imagine their memory of what was foretold about that generation somehow failed them in Acts 1 is pretty hard to imagine.

Therein is the cruxt of this issue....basically, you believe that based on the disciples understanding of old covenant imagery, and what Jesus talk to him during his 3 1/2 years regarding the coming judgment on that generation, that they would interpret the angels words in like manner as judgment, because since Jesus ascended up and disappeared into the clouds, and knowing that the disciples would have interpreted old covenant lingo of God coming in the clouds as judgment, then they would have interpreted the angels “in like manner as you have seen him ascend”, as the AD 70 judgment siege.

I assume you believe they understood the angel’s words as the coming judgement, right then and there when they heard the angel say, “in like manner as you saw Him leave, correct? And do you also believe they would have interpreted the angel’s words as Jesus returning, without having a physical body?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sean

No, but they only said Jesus would return in like manner.

These guys have blatantly said the angels told them THEY would see Jesus' return.

All these years they have been saying that, which is absolutely false.

I've never heard a Preterist say that. However, I have heard them point out Christ's rather direct statement to the disciples in Matthew,

Matthew 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:

The language would indicate that Jesus at the very least implies that this would take place at some point within their generation. Hence:

Matthew 24:33-34
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

This would all point to a first century fulfillment. I'm not trying to argue for Preterism, I'm just wanting to be intellectually honest with the text.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I've never heard a Preterist say that. However, I have heard them point out Christ's rather direct statement to the disciples in Matthew,

Matthew 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:

The language would indicate that Jesus at the very least implies that this would take place at some point within their generation. Hence:

Matthew 24:33-34
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

This would all point to a first century fulfillment. I'm not trying to argue for Preterism, I'm just wanting to be intellectually honest with the text.

What do you mean you never heard them say that?

TK just said it a couple days ago and we have been quoting him.

He did not deny he said it also.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by TK Burk

But you cannot separate the "coming" from what is to happen during that coming. Thus, the "manner" applies to what would happen during that time.

Chris, this is TK trying to MAKE it say that.

[Sean]

And he represents ALL preterists!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sean

What do you mean you never heard them say that?

TK just said it a couple days ago and we have been quoting him.

He did not deny he said it also.

I'm talking about Preterists outside of this discussion.

[Sean]

Esaias just spanked TK for his presupposition of Acts 1.

Go back and read the last page and you will see.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I'm talking about Preterists outside of this discussion.

I have heard them do the TK shuffle of Acts 1, but cannot retrieve the quotes.

I really don't know how to find that stuff from back in the day.

Maybe its in Mikes book?

[Aquila]

What we do know is that it is a historical fact that as the Roman legions began entering Judaea, and began surrounding Jerusalem, the Christian communities of Judea saw these events as being the fulfillment of Christ's prophecy against Jerusalem. Upon seeing these things, multiplied thousands of Christians began to pack up and flee Judea, as Christ had admonished believers to do upon seeing Jerusalem surrounded by armies. A significant number of these Christians fled to Pella and sought refuge there. Soon after, the Romans began their siege of Jerusalem. Historians note that the historical accounts of the Roman invasion appear to indicate that not a single Christian was killed in the siege.

It's clear that by obeying the literal understanding of Christ's words, as recorded in the Olivet Discourse, the first century church in Judea was spared total annihilation. Not only that, but the literal understanding of Christ's words that speak to a first century fulfillment indicates that the siege of 70 AD, and the destruction of the temple, was a final judgment upon unbelieving Israel, and the end of the entire Mosaic system. During this time the entire region was afire with apocalyptic expectation. However, as the events unfolded and Jerusalem fell, it is as though an orchestra had reached a crescendo... leaving a single note hanging in the air. Why? Although everything that Christ warned of appeared to manifest in vivid fulfillment... Christ had not returned. This has led to many skeptics claiming that Christ's prophecies failed.

Or... was this prophecy by Christ symbolic? Was his "return" in "the clouds" a return of Him in spirit to execute judgment on Judea? Preterism embraces this understanding.

This prophecy is a living prophecy. The destruction of the Temple and the dispersion of the Jews is something that has had a very real affect on the world even unto this day. Why do Jews weep and pray at the wailing wall? Why do they pray for the rebuilding of the temple? Because it was destroyed, just as Jesus said it would be. The very day to day reality lived by every Jew on the planet testifies to Christ's supremacy over their apostate religious system and legalism. The modern Jew is in the predicament they are in because... they rejected Christ and crucified Him... and as a result, He brought judgment upon them. Preterist or not... only the spiritually blind would deny that Christ came in judgment against Jerusalem in AD 70.

One thing that Preterism does is that it provides peace. If one accepts that Christ's prophecies were fulfilled in that generation, just as He said they would be, then we can gaze into history and see Christ's rule and providence from Heaven as God, it is Jesus who truly rules the nations. It is Christ who allows kingdoms to rise and brings them to their knees. It is Christ who brought the fall of Jerusalem, Christ who brought the fall of Rome, Christ who brought the fall of the Holy Roman Empire, Christ who brought the fall of the Ottoman Empire, Christ who brought the fall of the British Empire, Christ who brought the fall of the Axis Powers, Christ who brought the fall of the USSR, and as we see the circumstances unfolding in our day... it is Christ who is perhaps even preparing to come in judgment against... America.

Why does this bring peace? Because it solidly affirms Christ as the ruler of all nations, it affirms Christ as the very author of history.

What are other ways Preterism brings peace? It ends the endless "speculation" of cooks and quacks who keep writing books like, 88 Reasons Why the World Will End In 1988. It ends the constant and feverish quest to pin the tail on the Antichrist, or the ten nations that comprise the end time "Beast". To serious theologians who truly consider the very real implications of these attempts to interpret prophecy from the newspaper, this can cause enough stress to cause ulcers. For the Preterist believer, one lives one day at a time, advancing the Gospel. And the believer is simply waiting for that day when Christ will truly suddenly appear in the fullness of His glory and bring an end to all the suffering in our world... forever. There isn't a need to discover who the Beast is or contemplate how one will survive the 7 trumpets. It is understood that the spirit of antichrist is present throughout the world, and has been for thousands of years, and will be until Christ returns. It is also understood that Christ currently rules from Heaven and can bring judgment upon nations that oppose the advancement of the Gospel. And perhaps that's what we're seeing in the Middle East today as the entire region becomes more and more unstable with regimes who have opposed the Gospel weakening.

Since AD 70... a single note has hung in the air. The end will come when Christ appears. And it will ALL be over.