Apostoic worship??

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Which is why you are deceived. If you don't "feel it" means you personally don't care for it. But, behold, God is not bound by your personal "feelings". Whether you " feel it" or not is 110% irrelevant to whether or not there is spiritual life in "it". At best it might indicate you are the one with no life or spiritual perception. Our feelings are no gauge of whether something is of God, or not, or acceptable to Him, or not, or desired by Him, or not.

One thing I do know is that such heavy and condemnatory criticism over a brother's taste in worship music isn't warranted, nor is it of God. I also know that division over such things certainly isn't acceptable to God. God desires that we be united in the bonds of sincere brotherly love, not our taste of worship music.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Notice: on the one hand "we are not to be directed by our feelings". But on the other hand, " if you don't feel it then it's as lifeless as a catholic mass."

This is what Orwell called doublethink, and what is generally known as cognitive dissonance.

I'm sure you expected that to make sense.

Man is body, soul, and spirit. God gave man emotions as an aspect of the soul. Emotions serve us well, but we are not to serve our emotions. I believe we are to sincerely "feel" and "experience" God, life in Christ is more than mental ascent to head knowledge. To feel and to experience God is perhaps the greatest joy of being human. Are we to just always follow our feelings? No. But I believe it would be worse not to allow one's self to feel at all.

God is sovereign. God can speak through a donkey, certainly God can speak through a song sung by one. I know of an individual who was moved to weep before God and surrender all their cares and anxieties as they listened to the song, "Bridge Over Troubled Water". Why? Though he had heard the song dozens of times before, at that moment, he felt the Spirit of God speaking to Him through the song. If it is used by the Spirit to draw one's focus and intention towards Christ, why judge?

When you're weary, feeling small,
When tears are in your eyes
I will dry them all
I'm on your side
Oh when times get rough
And friends just can't be found

Like a bridge over troubled water
I will lay me down
Like a bridge over troubled water
I will lay me down

When you're down and out
When you're on the street
When evening falls so hard
I will comfort you
I'll take your part
Oh when darkness comes
And pain is all around

Like a bridge over troubled water
I will lay me down
Like a bridge over troubled water
I will lay me down

Sail on, silver girl
Sail on by
Your time has come to shine
All your dreams are on their way
See how they shine
Oh if you need a friend
I'm sailing right behind

Like a bridge over troubled water
I will ease your mind
Like a bridge over troubled water
I will ease your mind

Songwriters: PAUL SIMON

[Michael The Disciple]

There is no anointing to teach heresy except what comes from a strong God-sent delusion, or that which is according to the working of satan. I don't judge "anointing" by my emotional state, feeling, or by supposed physical sensations, tingles, shivers, etc. Either the Word is proclaimed faithfully and the Spirit blesses people to believe and receive the Word, which results in "signs following" to confirm the Word, or there's a problem.

Maybe I was unclear. Im not saying anything about feeling the anointing when heresy is taught. I meant to ask you if you think you feel the anointing when Oneness Pentecostals aka "Apostolics" who teach heresy get going with their worship.

Apostolics don't teach heresy. Apostolics teach the faith and practice of the apostles. Not all oneness Pentecostals are apostolic.

And who pray tell are these present day Apostolics who are NOT teaching any heresy? Im waiting to hear this and have spent the last 37 years looking for them?

I'm sure IHOP teaches every heresy that you could find in a UPC church, PLUS a lot more, like trinitarianism, easy believism, etc PLUS their cultic behavior PLUS their mind-manipulating atmospheric worship methods.

Ahhh so if you teach a lesser number of heresies its ok to get into their praise and worship?

Did I say their music was cursed? Nope, I sure didn't.

It certainly seems like you are implying it.

You did not really answer my question. Is it wrong for one like myself to think that some "Charismatic" praise and worship is more spiritual than Oneness Pentecostal praise and worship?

I thought thats what this thread was all about? Do you get blessed by music that is written or performed by persons or groups who teach heresies? Is that ok for you but not someone else?

Present the great music and worship style you think we should be enjoying!

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Where are the Bible verses stating that "worship must make me feel a certain way or else it is vain and worthless and needs an upgrade"? Or anything remotely approaching that idea?

True worship is full of emotion and feeling. It is passionate and powerful. It might be demonstrative, it might be more still. But the emotion is there, burning under the surface.

The Psalms are a good place to start. They are filled with emotion. Emotions that erupt in praise, adoration, love, and thanksgiving. Emotions that often illicit feelings of dismay, grief, shame, guilt, and godly sorrow. Some are also filled with joy! And yes, some are filled with a red hot righteous indignation. The Psalms are so very emotional, only the spiritually numb could read them and claim that they aren't. One doesn't need a Scripture saying, "Thou shalt feel your worship." One need only to see in the numerous examples in Scripture wherein worship is indeed, felt. I believe that heartfelt worship is the truest form of worship. One need only experience such worship for themselves to immediately realize how dead, lifeless, and powerless is obligatory worship that is void of feeling or emotion truly is. Worship is more than going through motions like a lifeless robot.

Sincere worship will indeed bring a change in our perspective and attitude. Sometimes, when I'm feeling down, I worship. A sincere act of worship will often encourage my downcast soul and turn my entire day around. It can help me gain a more "God-centered" perspective wherein my problems suddenly seem so small compared to my God. Dare I say it? If worship doesn't move you... it surely isn't moving God.

Psalm 42:11
11 Why art thou cast down, O my soul? and why art thou disquieted within me? hope thou in God: for I shall yet praise him, who is the health of my countenance, and my God.

1 Samuel 30:6
And David was greatly distressed; for the people spake of stoning him, because the soul of all the people was grieved, every man for his sons and for his daughters: but David encouraged himself in the Lord his God.

Let's not condemn the role of emotion in worship... simply to build a platform from which to attack a brother who feels emotional, blessed, or encouraged by music or artists we'd personally not prefer. Attacking, condemning, and hurting the feelings of a brother over something so based on individual personal preference and taste is far more serious an offense than one's preferred style of music could ever be.

I don't think Michael has deserved the heat you've given him. In all honesty, I think you should apologize. However, I can't say I'm convinced that in your current emotional state you will.

Father, bring us to a spirit of brotherly love and understanding. Help us to understand that our differences are indeed our strengths. Help us see how our differences actually glorify you. For the most beautiful garden is filled with flowers of many different shapes, sizes, and colors. Help us to see ourselves as one in spirit, though we might be different in regards to personal preference. Bring us into a unity of spirit through your abiding Holy Spirit. In Jesus' name. Amen.

[Michael The Disciple]

Peter

Αμεν! I spoke with some oneness people that participate in that kind of worship and they are almost like charismatics! When they see people falling down, running, laughing, walk like dogs etc. they think "Here is the presence of God"!!!!

THAT KIND OF WORSHIP? Falling down? Running? Laughing? Walk like Dogs?

Examine the videos I have put on this forum. There are MANY of them. Except for "laughing" you will find NONE of these other things.

And yet I have seen all of these if we would change "walking like dogs" to "barking like dogs" in Pentecostal Churches.

[peter83]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

THAT KIND OF WORSHIP? Falling down? Running? Laughing? Walk like Dogs?

Examine the videos I have put on this forum. There are MANY of them. Except for "laughing" you will find NONE of these other things.

And yet I have seen all of these if we would change "walking like dogs" to "barking like dogs" in Pentecostal Churches.

Υes i did not said this for you!
Nor i show such things at apostolic churches. But i say that i speak with many oineness people who accept those manifestations and if that ...they are ready to be deceived one day. They are vloseest to the danger of accepting an other spirit i mean.
I am not a close mind person, neither i think that no trinitarian will be saved. But i strong believe we must test the spirits.

Amen . God bless you.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

THAT KIND OF WORSHIP? Falling down? Running? Laughing? Walk like Dogs?

Examine the videos I have put on this forum. There are MANY of them. Except for "laughing" you will find NONE of these other things.

And yet I have seen all of these if we would change "walking like dogs" to "barking like dogs" in Pentecostal Churches.

Don't allow them to get to you Michael. Something else is happening here. Perhaps they've been tempted to go "charismatic". Perhaps a loved one left the truth and is caught up in one of these "charismatic" cults. When the heat and accusation you're drawing is clearly unjustified... you can be assured that the issue isn't you or the topic at hand. There is some deeper pain, fear, or concern that is crying out to be addressed in your accuser.

Esaias is a generally a good and well intentioned person. Maybe this subject is more serious to Esaias for reasons that we're not aware of. Should he not wish to share them, we should at the very least pray for him. Everyone is entitled to a bad day, and even a bad attitude, every now and then.

Father, I pray that you bless and encourage Esaias. Let Esaias feel your love and grace. Lord, I pray that you minister to any unspoken circumstance that might be troubling Esaias. And Lord, allow Esaias to also see and feel the love and appreciate we have for Esaias being our friend. In Jesus name. Amen.

[Michael The Disciple]

My expressions of praise do not depend on who's doing what, and neither should yours. They should instead reflect your response to God and His majesty.

I would say exactly the same thing to you.

[Michael The Disciple]

Father, I pray that you bless and encourage Esaias. Let Esaias feel your love and grace. Lord, I pray that you minister to any unspoken circumstance that might be troubling Esaias. And Lord, allow Esaias to also see and feel the love and appreciate we have for Esaias being our friend. In Jesus name. Amen.

Of the boldened I am sure.

[Aquila]

It's important not to judge one another too harshly.

For example, I know a brother who started getting into incense and votive candles when praying at home. He had what looked like a little altar with a picture of Jesus, candles, and incense. I saw it. I smiled and said, "So... you getting in touch with your Catholic roots?" He got all serious and defensive and said, "No. It just helps me feel more focused and deliberate in my prayers." I said, "Well... I guess that never hurts.", and laughed. And that was the last I said about it.

I think it was a few months later that I saw some really nice candles at a thrift store and I thought of him. So, I bought them for him. No, not to encourage his new Catholic flare. But to inoffensively open the conversation. When I saw him, I said, "Hey, I saw these candles and I thought you might be able to use them on your little altar thingy." He looked at them and smiled. He said, "I haven't really been burning candles or incense for some time now. I just needed to do something different, break up the monotony. I helped me feel more focused and spiritual. But after a while, I felt like I rediscovered that part of me that approached God with spiritual awe in my prayers and devotions." I smiled said, "So, you're not going to start taking Instructions down at St. Anthony's?" He laughed and said, "No way! Bro, I'm NOT Catholic!" I chuckled and said, "Whew. I just wanted to make sure." We then went out to eat and just talked about the Lord for a while.

I've learned that people aren't static. They go through things. They go through changes. They go through development. And at times, especially when it concerns spiritual things, the things people go through can seem downright weird. We do well not to cast a judgment before hearing the entire matter. I know that the times I've made a total heel out of myself has typically been when I judged prematurely. It's one of my human flaws. I think it's something many of us struggle with.

So, Michael enjoys worship music from some "charismatic" church. So what? If he's blessed by it and feels it sincerely expresses how he feels towards God, let it be. It's not something worth condemning him over.

I'm certain that you blessed little "heresy hunters" could find something worth burning me at the stake over in my worship practices. As I've mentioned, I not only believe in clapping, singing, praying aloud, praying in tongues, etc... but I also have been deeply blessed silent worship such as what one might experience in a Quaker meeting. It was my short sojourn with my Quaker friends that taught me that God isn't limited to only being experienced in the loud and thunderous demonstrations of worship...but He can also be experienced in the silence. Sometimes, even more deeply in the silence.

This led me to study forms of more silent worship in a more in depth manner. I discovered "contemplative prayer" and "soaking prayer" (often said to be the same, but in actuality they are rather different). As I studied these forms of prayer, I realized that I'd engaged in these forms of prayer for many years, going all the way back to the first Apostolic church I attended.

We'd have family prayer on Tuesday nights. Sometimes I'd get down between the pews and get into a place in my time of prayer wherein I didn't say a word. A single image, thought, song, person, or verse of Scripture would become my focus and in the silence I'd rest my soul and just allow whatever it was that had become my focus to fill my thoughts. I'd pray short silent prayers in accordance. At times the Holy Spirit would fill the prayer room so powerfully, we'd all be speaking in tongues, clapping, weeping, shouting, etc. until we became exhausted and found ourselves prostrate on the floor, laying in the pews, or face planted in the altar. I remember after a mighty move of the Spirit I was on the floor of the sanctuary with tears soaking my face and my shirt. I was laying on my stomach speaking in tongues and worshipping, giving God things I was struggling with, and then a peace came over me that brought me to silence. I felt Him. He was in the very room with us. I can't describe the feeling. It was like I was almost terrified to open my eyes and look up. He... was... there. Truly filling the sanctuary. The Creator of all things was manifesting His power and glory in that church in Dayton, Ohio. I was at a loss for words. It was like the reality of His presence was overwhelming to my mind. It was all my mind could do was silently repeat in my head, "He is here. He is here. He is here." I was trembling all over. I wasn't cold, but it was that kind of trembling that you can't help. And while I know how it sounds, I felt the very sandaled feet of Jesus walking closer to me. He stood over me for maybe two minutes as I lay there, my mind overwhelmed with "IT IS HIM. IT IS HIM." And suddenly I felt these words impressed upon my mind... "You are my son and I am your Father." I lost it and began weeping like a baby. And as quickly as it had begun, it all subsided.

Here's a little background. I had always struggled because my father abandoned us when I was only 2 years old. My father wouldn't visit or pick me up for visitations. He's promise to be there and not show up. On those times that he did pick me up, it was like my world was in living color. I was with my dad. But he failed me more times than not. At 16 years old I saw him for about an hour. It would be 25 years before I'd see him again, only to bury him a year later. Growing up with this experience caused me to have serious trust issues. Some can promise me that they'll be there for me, but I don't believe them. I just don't. I don't turn to them. I figure that they won't be there in the long term, so why bother? This has caused me quite a bit of grief because it hinders me from developing deep and lasting friendships. I'm okay with women. I trust women. But when it comes to teachers, pastors, friends, etc., I just don't really trust them as far as I can throw them. And sadly, it effected my walk with Christ. I felt condemnation no matter what I did. I felt like I was never good enough. The constant fear of missing the rapture (I believed in the rapture at that time) overwhelmed me. I just knew He was going to come for everyone in church... but me. He'd leave me standing there with my bags and high hopes... just like my dad did. It took my Sr. Pastor bringing this to my attention. He gave me this verse to focus on:

Psalm 68:5
A father of the fatherless, and a judge of the widows, is God in his holy habitation.

Those words shattered me as soon as my pastor had me read them, "A father... to the fatherless.", that's me. And so my healing began. I had a father... a Heavenly Father. A Father that promised to never leave me, nor forsake me.

And so, that is the background. You can imagine the raw emotion and near primal wailing and weeping that erupted from me when I heard the Lord say, "You are my son, and I am your Father." They say, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me." I can testify that words do hurt. They often hurt deeper than bruises ever could. But the good news is that words can also heal. With those words, my soul was healed.

It was maybe 15 years later that on a fluke of strange circumstances I reconnected with my dad. He was older now. We talked. He felt so much shame and sorrow for not being there for me. I was able to forgive and we had some great times. A year later, he passed away, the result of a heart attack. Being the next of kin, I buried him in the VA cemetery (he was a Vietnam vet). My emotional healing was complete. My relationship with my father restored. And honor returned to our family. God is so good.

Soaking in the Lord's presence, just "being" with Him, can change you. For me, it eases anxieties and fears. It also refreshes and awakens me to a greater understanding of the reality of His abiding presence. Contemplating truths of Scripture can open up a text to more meaningful and personally experiential realities. For example, I contemplated the symbol of Christ returning on a white horse. You know, the one from Revelation 19 where a sword is protruding out of His mouth. During that contemplative prayer session the Holy Spirit spoke to me saying, "I still ride." As I contemplated that, some awesome realizations began to pour upon me. Christ still rides in victory, overcoming all His enemies. One day, as I contemplated the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (same chapter in Revelation), my contemplative prayers moved into a deeper understanding of the Lord's Supper of all things. Now, one can judge, condemn, and criticize me. But the living experience I gain from the practice is so more enriching than the typical prayers I was used to praying. Not that I don't pray typical prayers any longer, it's just that contemplative prayer and soaking prayer have filled in those gaps that typical supplicative prayer left in my life.

I said all that to say this... personally experiencing God in our minds and emotions is a part of having a personal relationship with Him. It isn't enough to only know the relationship others had with Him thousands of years ago as found in Scripture, we must know Him ourselves, personally. And the ways and manners He can be known and experienced is as varied as the people who know and experience Him. That being so, we do well not to judge one another so harshly over such things.