For God so loved the world

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sean

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Or....


16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten SELF, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Which one?

Jesus was as much a man as He was God. Behold, I show you a mystery...

2 Corinthians 5:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

[Aquila]

Oneness can be hard to grasp for some. Many "morph" the Father and Son together in such a way that Christ's humanity, the man Christ Jesus, loses distinction. Maybe this description of Oneness will help you to at least grasp the concept better.

Put yourself into the shoes of a disciple who walked with Christ...

Imagine actually walking with Jesus for three years. How would you experience Christ's Oneness with the Father first hand? I like to explain it like this:

If you walked the earth with Jesus, you'd get to know Him as a man. He'd teach. He'd laugh. He'd eat. He'd use the restroom. He'd sleep. He'd rest. He'd pray to, and speak of, His Heavenly Father. He'd fast. He'd cry. He'd sweat. He'd bleed. However... at times you'd feel something otherworldly emanating from deep within Him. Something emanating from the very core of His being. Something powerful. Something that has authority over all creation. Something that speaks to the winds... bringing them into total and absolute obedience. Something that raises the dead and heals all manner of sickness. Something indescribable. Something "other". This would be the Father Himself at the core of Christ's own person. You'd realize that this man is far more than just a mere man. You'd realize that this man is... also God.

However, keep in mind...God did not reside in Christ as though He were merely a human vehicle. He didn't reside in Christ as a cat in a box. That would be Unitarianism. No, God abides in and permeates Christ's very being. A Oneness so complete, so majestic, and so divine that in Christ it can be said that God became a man... and that this very same man (from conception) was also God. In Christ Jesus, God elevated human nature into union with His own divine nature. In addition, His very own divine nature condescended to establish union with human nature.

No other religion elevates Christ to such an infinite height of majesty and honor. No other religion expresses Christ's true person to such an infinite degree. Most religions merely make Christ a prophet or seek to establish Him as being some second co-eternal divine being or person. No... Christ was not just a prophet. Christ was not a second co-eternal divine being or person. Christ also wasn't God shape-shifted or morphed into the mere appearance of a man who only pretended to pray. Christ was the authentic human tabernacle of God Himself. To deny this imperils the soul... and reduces Christ to being either a lunatic or a liar.

All authority and power has been delivered to Christ Jesus. He will judge Krishna. He will judge Buddha. He will judge Mohammed. He will judge Nanak. He will judge the followers of every false prophet and madman. He will judge all men in accordance to the Father's will as it relates to the Gospel. Through Him, the Father will judge. Because they are one.

Let us see how Jesus Himself describes His Oneness with the Father:

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)

I've included an image to explain the concept visually.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

The "he" in verse 24, if the KJV is being used, is in italics, meaning it's not really there in the Greek, but was added by the translators to supplement meaning.

The Textus Receptus reads:

οτι εγω ειμι

Transliterated as hoti ego eimi

- hoti is the demonstrative pronoun referring to "that" in the text.
- ego is the personal pronoun, 1st person singular, referring to "I" in the text.
- eime is the present active indicative, 1st person singular, conjugated form of the verb that means "to be", referring to "am" in the text.

Once the italicized "he" is removed, it looks pretty clear that the antecedent is from verse 23, that is, the One is who is from above.

So, unless you believe that Jesus is from "above"...

The reference to the Father in verse 27 pertains to verse 26:

"I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him".

The Jews didn't understand that the One who had sent Him, the things Jesus had heard of that One, is the Father.

This ties back to verse 25.

"Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning."

Since they didn't recognize or receive Jesus as the Son of God, they weren't in a position to recognize or receive the One who sent Him, that is, God the Father.

The "beginning" that Jesus is referring to is His first revelation of Himself given to the Jews back in chapter 5:19,

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise."

The Jews then would not receive the Lord's testimony, and so, three chapters later, they are still stumbling, not willing or unable to recognize who Jesus is.

Unless you all believe that I am, you all shall die in your sins.

That's the Greek, is it not? So, unless they believe He is WHAT? He is not saying "unless you believe that I exist", for that would be absurd, He was standing there talking to them. So it must be "unless you believe that I am SOMETHING or SOMEONE." So the Jews asked "who are you?" And He said "even the same that I said unto you all from the beginning." Which as you pointed out goes back to John ch 5.

But that's where it gets interesting, because in John ch 5 Jesus claims for Himself numerous prerogatives that belong to God. Now, the trinitarian or binitarian has no problem with this, because they see Him as god number 2, essentially. But to the Jews of that day, such a claim could ONLY MEAN ONE THING: "Thou, being a man, makes thyself GOD". And to them, "God" did NOT include the idea of "multiple persons in one Godhead". If they thought Jesus was claiming to be God, then they thought He was claiming to be THE FATHER, because the two terms are synonymous in monotheistic thinking.

The Jews accused Jesus of claiming to be God on the basis of him saying he is the Son of God. Yet Jews had no idea of later trinitarian concepts of God the Son vs God the Father etc. So why would they think He was claiming to be GOD by saying God was His Father? Because of His statements in John ch 5 whereby He says things like "as all men honour the Father they are to honour the Son", that it is the voice of the Son which shall raise the dead from the graves. And in John ch 8 where He claimed that HE HIMSELF was "the light of the world", making Himself (in Jewish thinking) to be the very effulgence or perception of God.

So, when He said unless you believe that I am (someone previously explained to you guys), you guys will all die in your sins", He was in fact pointing to the Father - albeit theologically, not grammatically.

[Jito463]

My pastor made an interesting point recently.

How many times in the Bible did God judge a people because of child sacrifice? How many civilizations were wiped out because they murdered their own children? How then could God justify sending another in His stead, to die for our sins?

That would make God a hypocrite, which would mean He's not God.

If Jesus wasn't more than just a man - if He wasn't also God manifest in the flesh - then God committed a sin that he punished others for.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Jito463

My pastor made an interesting point recently.

How many times in the Bible did God judge a people because of child sacrifice? How many civilizations were wiped out because they murdered their own children? How then could God justify sending another in His stead, to die for our sins?

That would make God a hypocrite, which would mean He's not God.

If Jesus wasn't more than just a man - if He wasn't also God manifest in the flesh - then God committed a sin that he punished others for.

God originally commanded the Israelites to offer up their firstborn males - but then gave them instructions on how to redeem them. God also commanded Abraham to offer up Isaac, but then redeemed him (before he was killed). Jesus was offered up as well - but it was based upon the promise of redemption: "Thou wilt not suffer thine holy One to see corruption, thou wilt not leave my soul in hell."

God forbade human sacrifice because nobody could redeem the victims, it would have constituted murder.

And, speaking of which, Jesus' death was classified as a murder, since the ones who killed him had no intention of redeeming Him (much less the power to do so). But it was an offering, since He died on behalf of others. And further still, it was a giving up of his only begotten Son because the sacrifice was redeemed from death by resurrection.

And even beyond that, it was a total victory over death because it was not possible that death should hold Him, since He was the very eternal life of God manifested in human nature. And so by means of death He destroyed death.

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

The scriptures show content...
"Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, 'Sacrifice and offering
thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me'...By the which will we
are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

...and context...
"...that God was in Christ (in the body), reconciling the world unto himself,
not imputing theirtrespasses unto them...and hath committed unto us the word
of reconciliation. Unless you all believe that I am (?), you all shall die in your sins."

...defining content and context...
"For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon
line; here a little, and there a little."

...the blending of the scriptures...
"...a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that
is to say, his flesh..."

The whole world will die in their sins if they don't believe that Jesus is "...the
LAMB of God that takes away the sin of the world."

Brother Villa

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Jesus was as much a man as He was God. Behold, I show you a mystery...

2 Corinthians 5:19 King James Version (KJV)
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Right, God was IN Christ, not God WAS Christ.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Unless you all believe that I am, you all shall die in your sins.

That's the Greek, is it not? So, unless they believe He is WHAT? He is not saying "unless you believe that I exist", for that would be absurd, He was standing there talking to them. So it must be "unless you believe that I am SOMETHING or SOMEONE." So the Jews asked "who are you?" And He said "even the same that I said unto you all from the beginning." Which as you pointed out goes back to John ch 5.

But that's where it gets interesting, because in John ch 5 Jesus claims for Himself numerous prerogatives that belong to God. Now, the trinitarian or binitarian has no problem with this, because they see Him as god number 2, essentially. But to the Jews of that day, such a claim could ONLY MEAN ONE THING: "Thou, being a man, makes thyself GOD". And to them, "God" did NOT include the idea of "multiple persons in one Godhead". If they thought Jesus was claiming to be God, then they thought He was claiming to be THE FATHER, because the two terms are synonymous in monotheistic thinking.

The Jews accused Jesus of claiming to be God on the basis of him saying he is the Son of God. Yet Jews had no idea of later trinitarian concepts of God the Son vs God the Father etc. So why would they think He was claiming to be GOD by saying God was His Father? Because of His statements in John ch 5 whereby He says things like "as all men honour the Father they are to honour the Son", that it is the voice of the Son which shall raise the dead from the graves. And in John ch 8 where He claimed that HE HIMSELF was "the light of the world", making Himself (in Jewish thinking) to be the very effulgence or perception of God.

So, when He said unless you believe that I am (someone previously explained to you guys), you guys will all die in your sins", He was in fact pointing to the Father - albeit theologically, not grammatically.

Unless you all believe that I am, you all shall die in your sins.

Strongs?....LOL



Jesus said "Unless you believe that I exist?


Except you believe that I am he(messiah). Much better.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Oneness can be hard to grasp for some. Many "morph" the Father and Son together in such a way that Christ's humanity, the man Christ Jesus, loses distinction. Maybe this description of Oneness will help you to at least grasp the concept better.

Put yourself into the shoes of a disciple who walked with Christ...

Imagine actually walking with Jesus for three years. How would you experience Christ's Oneness with the Father first hand? I like to explain it like this:

If you walked the earth with Jesus, you'd get to know Him as a man. He'd teach. He'd laugh. He'd eat. He'd use the restroom. He'd sleep. He'd rest. He'd pray to, and speak of, His Heavenly Father. He'd fast. He'd cry. He'd sweat. He'd bleed. However... at times you'd feel something otherworldly emanating from deep within Him. Something emanating from the very core of His being. Something powerful. Something that has authority over all creation. Something that speaks to the winds... bringing them into total and absolute obedience. Something that raises the dead and heals all manner of sickness. Something indescribable. Something "other". This would be the Father Himself at the core of Christ's own person. You'd realize that this man is far more than just a mere man. You'd realize that this man is... also God.

However, keep in mind...God did not reside in Christ as though He were merely a human vehicle. He didn't reside in Christ as a cat in a box. That would be Unitarianism. No, God abides in and permeates Christ's very being. A Oneness so complete, so majestic, and so divine that in Christ it can be said that God became a man... and that this very same man (from conception) was also God. In Christ Jesus, God elevated human nature into union with His own divine nature. In addition, His very own divine nature condescended to establish union with human nature.

No other religion elevates Christ to such an infinite height of majesty and honor. No other religion expresses Christ's true person to such an infinite degree. Most religions merely make Christ a prophet or seek to establish Him as being some second co-eternal divine being or person. No... Christ was not just a prophet. Christ was not a second co-eternal divine being or person. Christ also wasn't God shape-shifted or morphed into the mere appearance of a man who only pretended to pray. Christ was the authentic human tabernacle of God Himself. To deny this imperils the soul... and reduces Christ to being either a lunatic or a liar.

All authority and power has been delivered to Christ Jesus. He will judge Krishna. He will judge Buddha. He will judge Mohammed. He will judge Nanak. He will judge the followers of every false prophet and madman. He will judge all men in accordance to the Father's will as it relates to the Gospel. Through Him, the Father will judge. Because they are one.

Let us see how Jesus Himself describes His Oneness with the Father:

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)

I've included an image to explain the concept visually.

Notice verse 10.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Sean

Strongs?....LOL



Jesus said "Unless you believe that I exist?


Except you believe that I am he(messiah). Much better.

You really need to get a refund from the public school system. Seriously.