Reconciling and purifying Heaven?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I'll be back later with more but I'm thinking this has to do with, or is somehow connected to, the high priest making atonement for the altars, sanctuary, ark, etc. I always wondered why those things needed an atonement. They weren't sinful, they were holy!

But! Apparently they "carried the sins of the people" and needed purging. And they are patterns or models of certain "heavenly things" or realities.

It appears the Cross has literally cosmic and universal significance. (Universal as in impacting the entire created universe, earth AND heaven.)

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

His NAME is Jesus!



The earthly Tabernacle was duplicated after the pattern of the Eternal Tabernacle:
which had to have been established “…before the foundation of the world.” That is,
on the 1st day of creation when God said, “…Let there be light.”

The earthly tabernacle, known as the tabernacle in the wilderness, needed to be
purified [temporarily] by blood: it was by the blood of the purest sacrifice available:
without blemish. This would satisfy the atonement of sin for a year.

To eternally establish the atonement for sin, the Eternal Tabernacle also had
to be consecrated by blood: “Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by
his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal
redemption for us.” So you see that OUR redemption was not actually fulfilled
at the cross, but the sacrifice had to be accepted at the Supreme Court of
Eternity! The proof that the sacrifice was acceptable is the resurrection of
the Lord Jesus: the proof that the blood was accepted, is that Jesus descended
and abode with the disciple, and afterwards the Holy Spirit was imparted (and
being imparted still) to those who believe and obey the gospel that saves.

Reconciling Eternity and earth means bringing both into complete conformity
and harmony with the Father.

Brother Villa

Yes, that's where I'm going with this, it seems. Not so much that there are heavenly rebels who need to be reconciled to God, but that there is a judicial requirement of sorts that must be met.

The sanctuary had to be purged by blood in order to accommodate the sin offerings. Heaven required a preparation as well, in order to accommodate our admittance to the heavenly places.

[Esaias]

Now, the things in heaven that are being reconciled to God are not angelic beings, as far as I can see. If you believe the Jewish-catholic myth of "fallen angels" running loose thwarting God's people etc, living in rebellion against God, then you probably also believe there is no redemption available to those fallen angels. "Lucifer" and his "satanic hosts' aren't going to be reconciled to God (unless you are a universalist). So, the things in heaven to be reconciled to God would not be any fallen angels.

It is also would not apply to departed saints, because saints are people who have been reconciled to God, thus saints do not need to be reconciled to God. they already have been. And saints who have departed and "gone to heaven" are already in heaven, which they would not be able to do if they weren't already reconciled to God. (All this is assuming one believes in the "dead saints go to heaven before resurrection day" theory.)

It would also not apply to old testament saints because the theory that the old testament saints went to heaven is that they were taken to heaven by Jesus either during His time in the grave or during His ascension, which were past events to Paul when he wrote Colossians. But Paul wrote about reconciliation as if it were ongoing, not a completely past event. That is to say, God in Christ was reconciling the world to Himself BUT each of us must be personally reconciled to God in our own times and places (hence, the work or ministry of reconciliation, "be ye reconciled to God"). This would imply that the things in heaven to be reconciled must likewise be reconciled individually in their own time and place to God, even though the provision for reconciliation has already been made through the cross.

Also, the old testament saints are not in heaven anyway, for on the day of Pentecost Peter explicitly affirmed "David is not ascended into the heavens", which would not be true if the old testament saints were gone to heaven at the ascension of Christ. And, again, they would not be in heaven if they had not been already reconciled to God (that's why they are "saints" to begin with).

The things in the heaven to be reconciled would also not be a reference to the living on earth, as if "things in heaven" was a reference to the "spiritual component of man", because men are on earth and are included in the category of things on earth to be reconciled to God.

So what then are the things in heaven that need to be reconciled to God?

A clue possibly lies in the immediate context:

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
(Colossians 1:15-16)

Paul says Christ is the firstborn of every creature (created thing) because by him was everything created, whether in heaven or in earth. the fact God created all things by Christ places Christ in the position of "firstborn" and therefore the prime heir of all those things. He is the Princeps of all things, both in earth and in heaven.

Paul then apparently defines those things in earth and in heaven as "visible and invisible". It may be assumed that "visible" refers to the things on earth, and "invisible" refers to the things in heaven, just as he said Christ is the image of the invisible God. That is, Christ, the man, the One who was on earth, was (and is) the visible image of the One in heaven (God). So that visibility pertains to things in earth, and invisibility pertains to things in heaven.

He further defines these visible and invisible things as "whether (they are) thrones, or dominions, principalities, or powers". The phrase principalities and powers is a reference to government. In fact, all four terms are references to government. And here is where it gets interesting.

Many think that "powers and principalities" refers to fallen angelic or demonic powers and forces in a supposed satanic kingdom exercising rule and influence over human society. As if there was an invisible kingdom of satan superimposed over the map of the world. "Territorial spirits" in this satanic hierarchy assigned to certain areas of the evil invisible empire exercise influence and control over the corresponding earthly geographical areas. Thus, the kingdom of satan has a counterpart to "New York" (probably centered in Crown Heights, to be honest) that influences and controls the people living in New York, including local government as well as the locals themselves, promoting sin and immorality, etc. (Assuming the NYC territorial demons are actually hovering around Crown Heights might actually make sense, now that I think about it...lol)

But, honestly this scheme does not make much sense, either rationally or Biblically. If there is a satanic kingdom in heaven, God has a major problem (His house is divided, for one thing). The contrast is between earth and heaven, not one layer of heaven vs another layer. Thus "heaven" in the context encompasses ALL of "heaven", not just the top floors. Secondly as previously pointed out the satanic or demonic world is not scheduled for reconciliation, but destruction. So it would make no sense to suppose the powers and principalities are Satan's invisible empire that has been given reconciliation through the cross.

Biblically, "powers and principalities" refers to human governments:

Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
(Titus 3:1)

If powers and principalities refers to invisible demonic strongholds and fallen angels, Paul was instructing Titus to preach that Christians should be in subjection to and to obey these demonic forces, which makes no sense at all. Rather, Paul was instructing Titus to remind the brethren to obey the local government so as not to be guilty of seditious treason and criminality. This subjection to government is not of course exhaustive, for "we must obey God rather than men", but the principle is clear - Christians are no anarchist rebels.

Now even though human government may be considered by many as something "earthly", is it really? Is government actually visible? You cannot see any actual government, because government and authority are abstract concepts. They are, to be technical, "invisible". This would make them pertain to "heaven" rather to "earth" (physical, visible things). We can see America on the map, but that is just a picture representation. When you cross a national border, or a border from one state to another, you see no actual border, you just see a sign somebody put up to denote the change in jurisdiction. The sign is necessary because the "state" or "country" (national jurisdiction) is invisible, it is an abstract concept not a physical reality in itself.

And this is why prophetic language, for example, often speaks of momentous changes in authority or government as disturbances in the heaven (stars falling down, sun going black, etc). Heaven is Biblically considered the sphere or arena of government and authority. So a disturbance in government is considered a disturbance in heaven.

Christ is said to have been the one by whom all these things were made. Paul elsewhere says the "powers that be are ordained of God" and Daniel ch 2 confirms that God rules over human governments. Therefore, the powers and principalities, thrones and dominions (ie government) was indeed created, made, or ordained (established and set up) by God through Christ. In fact, Christ, as "firstborn" or Princeps is the archetypal government (He is the archetypal "King" or Ruler). He represents in Himself the original Divine Idea of government authority and rule. So the invisible powers and principalities of heaven (that is to say, all government itself, per se) were not only made by God through Christ, but are subject to being reconciled through the cross to God.

Government has often been, and in many ways still is, in rebellion against God. Although it is not an absolute rebellion, for even Pilate could have no authority unless it were given to him from above, nevertheless the powers and principalities are often held by rebellious sinful men. The men of course must be reconciled to God, but the very authorities or government itself must also be reconciled to God, and brought into a position of whole hearted subjection to God. Currently, even those powers and principalities that are controlled by sinners in rebellion against God are not in themselves rebellious, but their use has been perverted by sinful men.

Consider the marital relationship: Carnal relations between a man and woman is not in itself rebellious or contrary to the will of God, but the marriage institution is often perverted or abused, or abandoned altogether, by sinners. This means that marriage, as an institution itself, needs to be "redeemed" or "reconciled to God", in the sense that the marriage institution needs to be restored to its proper, Biblical role and position. And how is this accomplished? By men and women respecting its proper role and authority. In other words, as men and women are reconciled to God, they are brought into a harmonious relationship to the will of God. They are no longer enemies, or acting contrary to the will of God. When this happens, marriage itself as an institution - abstract though it may be - is "reconciled" to God or restored to its proper use and position.

Even further, we may say that through and because of the cross, marriage itself, per se, has been reconciled to God. And what remains is for mankind to recognise and submit to that reconciliation.

So too it would apply to government. the reconciliation of government to God needs to be recognised by mankind. Which is to say mankind must learn that authority, government, the "powers and principalities", belong to God and are designed to serve Him. The very concept of government has been reconciled to God (brought into conformity to His will), and now it remains for the persons occupying those positions to act accordingly.

And thus, the reconciliation of things in earth and in heaven through the cross go hand in hand together. And it is the mission of the church to proclaim this universal reconciliation not only to men, but to the powers and principalities:

Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
(Ephesians 3:8-12)

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Originally Posted by Esaias

Yes, that's where I'm going with this, it seems. Not so much that there are heavenly rebels who need
to be reconciled to God, but that there is a judicial requirement of sorts that must be met.
The sanctuary had to be purged by blood in order to accommodate the sin offerings. Heaven required a
preparation as well, in order to accommodate our admittance to the heavenly places.

There are no "heavenly rebels" that can be reconciled to God.

All judicial requirements have been met, and there is no more that God must, or can do.
The rest is up to "...whosoever believes..."; in other words, that we present our bodies
"...a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." If we
believe His promises, we will also be able to obey.

Brother Villa

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Yes, that's where I'm going with this, it seems. Not so much that there are heavenly rebels who need to be reconciled to God, but that there is a judicial requirement of sorts that must be met.

The sanctuary had to be purged by blood in order to accommodate the sin offerings. Heaven required a preparation as well, in order to accommodate our admittance to the heavenly places.

Upon consideration, it would seem that the powers and principalities include the "heavenly places" in which we are seated with Christ. They had to be reconciled to God, meaning that through the cross the heavenly places are now designed to be occupied by Christ, and through Him by us.

God allowed government to continue in spite of man's sin, thus it may be said the heavenly places "bore the iniquity" of the people. But through the cross the heavenly places (powers and principalities) have been purged and reconciled to God, they have been judicially cleansed of the iniquity they "bore", and are now fit to receive the saints as the ones to occupy those heavenly places. Or, at least are in the process of being made fit to not only be occupied by but exercised by the saints. "Do you not know that the saints shall judge the world?" (1 Cor 6:2)

I am still considering the question of whether the heavenly reconciliation has been completed or is in process. In one sense, it must have been completed, otherwise how could we sit in heavenly places now? On the other hand, we sit in heavenly places now "in Christ", meaning we are only in those heavenly places because we are in Christ, and He is in the heavenly places, that is, He is in the position of highest heavenly authority, which would place us over and above the powers and principalities.

Furthermore, this seems to be one of those "both now and not yet" things, where in one sense it is a present reality but in another sense it is to have a future fulfillment or completion. After all, the powers and principalities do not at present appear to be in total submission to God. Yet God calls those things which be not as though they were, and by His creative rhema what He has spoken eventually comes to be reality.

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Originally Posted by Esaias

Upon consideration, it would seem that the powers and principalities include the "heavenly places" in which
we are seated with Christ. They had to be reconciled to God, meaning that through the cross the heavenly
places are now designed to be occupied by Christ, and through Him by us.

God allowed government to continue in spite of man's sin, thus it may be said the heavenly places "bore the
iniquity" of the people. But through the cross the heavenly places (powers and principalities) have been purged
and reconciled to God, they have been judicially cleansed of the iniquity they "bore", and are now fit to receive the
saints as the ones to occupy those heavenly places. Or, at least are in the process of being made fit to not only be
occupied by but exercised by the saints. "Do you not know that the saints shall judge the world?" (1 Cor 6:2)

I am still considering the question of whether the heavenly reconciliation has been completed or is in process. In
one sense, it must have been completed, otherwise how could we sit in heavenly places now? On the other hand,
we sit in heavenly places now "in Christ", meaning we are only in those heavenly places because we are in Christ,
and He is in the heavenly places, that is, He is in the position of highest heavenly authority, which would place us
over and above the powers and principalities.

Furthermore, this seems to be one of those "both now and not yet" things, where in one sense it is a present reality
but in another sense it is to have a future fulfillment or completion. After all, the powers and principalities do not at
present appear to be in total submission to God. Yet God calls those things which be not as though they were, and by
His creative rhema what He has spoken eventually comes to be reality.

What, to you, are the "heavenly places"?

Brother Villa

[Amanah]

so we are seated with Christ in heavenly places, but we are still purifying ourselves

1 John3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.


Verses on Heavenly places
Ephesians 1:3
Ephesians 1:17-21
Ephesians 2:4-7
Ephesians 3:10-12
Ephesians 6:10-12

Ephesians 6:10-12
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

we are wrestling with spiritual wickedness in high/heavenly places.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

His NAME is Jesus!



What, to you, are the "heavenly places"?

Brother Villa

The place of spiritual authority and rule. Christ is at the right hand of God, meaning He is the one exercising the authority of God as God's Regent. And we, in Christ, are "seated with him" in that position of authority. At least in a corporate sense. Meaning the church is acting as Christ's representative on earth.

There is, of course, a yet to be future (and conditional) fulfillment or completion of this:

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star.
(Revelation 2:26-28)

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
(Revelation 3:21)

There is a condition attached, namely that of overcoming, for the individual believer.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

so we are seated with Christ in heavenly places, but we are still purifying ourselves

1 John3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.


Verses on Heavenly places
Ephesians 1:3
Ephesians 1:17-21
Ephesians 2:4-7
Ephesians 3:10-12
Ephesians 6:10-12

Ephesians 6:10-12
10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

we are wrestling with spiritual wickedness in high/heavenly places.

Yes, the church is engaged in a spiritual warfare with wickedness that is occupying the heavenly places of authority. The apostolic church constantly had to contend with this, but it wasn't "territorial demon spirits ruling over geographical areas", it was Roman and Jewish political and religious authority structures that were controlled by wicked men. Thus, Paul said "we do not wrestle against flesh and blood", meaning it is not a conflict between the church and individual physical person in a physical wrestling match, but against WICKEDNESS (wickedness itself, a spirit) that controlled those wicked magistrates, subverting the proper role of authority.

Those powers and principalities, being subverted by wicked men under the control of the spirit of rebellion, were in opposition to the Gospel and to Christ's authority. The powers and principalities having been reconciled to God (as opposed to simply being destroyed outright) belong to Christ, and the wicked men who use those positions to unlawfully war against Christ and His church need to be reconciled to God as well. Or else vacate the office.

And if Christ's people are doing their part, that is exactly what should happen. Of course, there cannot be a vacuum, so for the wicked to be removed from the dominion requires the godly to be prepared and capable to occupy their place. Otherwise, God continues to use the wicked to chastise His erring children, as well as the rest of sinners.

I think you have hit on a truth, that reconciliation and purging (purification) are two related but distinct things. If we have been reconciled to God we will seek to be cleansed and purged of whatever is not in keeping with His will.

[Esaias]

The more I think about it, the more this makes sense. The Gospel is the Good News. But Good News about what? What kind of Good News? It is the Gospel of the KINGDOM OF GOD. What is the Kingdom of God? It includes many things, and many layers, but essentially it is the DOMINION and RULE OF GOD.

In other words, the Gospel is all about government. It's about who rules? If the Gospel has come to your heart, that means the Good News of God's Dominion has come to your heart. If the gospel bears fruit in you it means that you will submit to the Dominion of God.

So too the Gospel is to be preached not only to every creature, but to the powers and principalities as well:

Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
(Ephesians 3:8-12)

The church is to make the manifold will of God known to the powers and principalities in heavenly places.

This is the Message that Christ REIGNS, it is the very source and heart of the Gospel. It is the basis of the Great Commission, for the Lord said "ALL AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH IS GIVEN UNTO ME. GO THEREFORE AND TEACH ALL NATIONS...