Should we teach others to rebel against standards? - Page 33

1ofthechosen · #**321** 04-16-2018, 10:50 AM

Tithesmaster there is really nothing else left here to discuss. You said the Bible doesn't teach it, but it does. I have more scripture here to choke a mule! Now whether you want to believe is up to you. I can see you have your own angle, you are trying to prove. But whatever it is, has to be shown in light of what Jesus Himself showed in Revelations. Any other interpretation you are getting has to fit in with that model. Why I do believe all Holy Ghost believers are Kings and Priests. We can do that, we can all have the power to have our own ministry. Yet, no one's ministry is complete without being under submission. Going off independently and having no authority over you, is not how the Acts church was shown to be. Anyone who is going to be a leader has to be a good follower.

People not being under submission and doing their own thing is where you get people coming up with crazy ideas. That's where all this unchecked false doctrine comes from. Ever heard of Jim Jones, or David Koresh? Or you could be like the NAR where they have organization but no rule, but truly it's under subjection too. Under subjection and the rule of the devil, through a kundalini spirit.

Amanah · #**322** 04-16-2018, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Tithesmaster there is really nothing else left here to discuss. You said the Bible doesn't teach it, but it does. I have more scripture here to choke a mule! Now whether you want to believe is up to you. I can see you have your own angle, you are trying to prove. But whatever it is, has to be shown in light of what Jesus Himself showed in Revelations. Any other interpretation you are getting has to fit in with that model. Why I do believe all Holy Ghost believers are Kings and Priests. We can do that, we can all have the power to have our own ministry. Yet, no one's ministry is complete without being under submission. Going off independently and having no authority over you, is not how the Acts church was shown to be. Anyone who is going to be a leader has to be a good follower.

People not being under submission and doing their own thing is where you get people coming up with crazy ideas. That's where all this I checked false doctrine comes from. Or you could be like the NAR where they have organization but no rule, but truly it's under subjection too. Under subjection and the rule of the devil, through a kundalini spirit.

amen

Aquila · #**323** 04-16-2018, 10:57 AM

1ofthechosen,

I do believe you are right in that everyone should have an elder or pastoral authority of some sort over them. It's a matter of accountability.

My question is, what is one to do when that authority has gone off the rails on a crazy train of human tradition, self-aggrandizing power, and paranoia?

Tithesmeister · #**324** 04-16-2018, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

But I believe the definition of Thayer showing what a shepherd does is the answer to that "A shepherd in the Near East was responsible for watching out for enemies trying to attack the sheep, defending the sheep from attackers, healing the wounded and sick sheep, finding and saving lost or trapped sheep, loving them, and sharing their lives and to earn their trust." And that's what a true man of God, "A GOD APPOINTED MAN OF GOD" does. Not as John 10:12 says "But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.*

Brother, let me put this in context for you, because you are in serious error here.

Who is the good shepherd that is referred to here?

It seems that you believe that this refers to a pastor. It does not. Jesus is the Good Shepherd. You have (unintentionally I'm sure) elevated the pastor to the position of Jesus! Can't you see this?

Here's the quote:

Bible, King James Version

John.10 Verses 10 to 12

[10] The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
[11] I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
[12] But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

You have displaced Jesus and replaced Him with the pastor. Now, I believe you do so based on what you see as good intentions, but error is error. Error leads to weak, faulty doctrine. This is an example of trying to create another layer of priesthood where the scripture doesn't provide one.

You have tried to make pastors angels, which they are not.

When I have challenged you on this, you have graduated to making pastors God. Please think about what you are saying!

Pastors have a function in the church. Their function is NOT to take the place of God.

1ofthechosen · #**325** 04-16-2018, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

1ofthechosen,

I do believe you are right in that everyone should have an elder or pastoral authority of some sort over them. It's a matter of accountability.

My question is, what is one to do when that authority has gone off the rails on a crazy train of human tradition, self-aggrandizing power, and paranoia?

Aquila name one thing in this world you totally agree with 100 % and has all positives and no negatives let's start there. Can you name anything? Because I can't.

Aquila · #**326** 04-16-2018, 11:04 AM

The notion that a pastor should be able to do as he pleases, preach what he pleases, and politick as he pleases is essentially to treat the church like a business, and the pastor as merely a business owner setting his own brand for the market place.

A "church" is not a "business", it is the body of Christ, and should be beholden to the Word of God.

Aquila · #**327** 04-16-2018, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Aquila name one thing in this world you totally agree with 100 % and has all positives and no negatives let's start there. Can you name anything? Because I can't.

You're question is a smoke screen, not an answer. Let me ask my question again:

What is one to do when that authority has gone off the rails on a crazy train of human tradition, self-aggrandizing power, and paranoia?

Amanah · #**328** 04-16-2018, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

You're question is a smoke screen, not an answer. Let me ask my question again:

What is one to do when that authority has gone off the rails on a crazy train of human tradition, self-aggrandizing power, and paranoia?

you are highly exaggerating out of your hatred for Apostolics.

1ofthechosen · #**329** 04-16-2018, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Brother, let me put this in context for you, because you are in serious error here.

Who is the good shepherd that is referred to here?

It seems that you believe that this refers to a pastor. It does not. Jesus is the Good Shepherd. You have (unintentionally I'm sure) elevated the pastor to the position of Jesus! Can't you see this?

Here's the quote:

Bible, King James Version

John.10 Verses 10 to 12

[10] The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
[11] I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
[12] But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

You have displaced Jesus and replaced Him with the pastor. Now, I believe you do so based on what you see as good intentions, but error is error. Error leads to weak, faulty doctrine. This is an example of trying to create another layer of priesthood where the scripture doesn't provide one.

You have tried to make pastors angels, which they are not.

When I have challenged you on this, you have graduated to making pastors God. Please think about what you are saying!

Pastors have a function in the church. Their function is NOT to take the place of God.

Umm Jesus is the Capitol GOOD SHEPHERD. Now if Jesus says plainly in verse 7-9 "Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. [8] All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. [9] I am the doorby me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture." Then in John 10 :1-5 who is this lowecased shepherd? "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. [3] To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. [4] And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. [5] And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers."

Now I used verse 12 because since what Jesus Himself laid here from Verse 1-5. Then when this came to pass they wouldn't be "a hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep." In His church in the 5 fold ministry, outside of that umbrella there is no guarantee. I never said the Pastor was God, But I did say there was a thing as a "GOD APPOINTED MAN OF GOD". While so does scripture. Because you have to learn to hear God's voice through a man. If you never have you wouldn't even understand. But it's not how voice you are obeying to, it's not the vessel you are showing respect unto. But the position that God appointed, so in that you are obeying God. Giving respect unto His way.

1ofthechosen · #**330** 04-16-2018, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquila

You're question is a smoke screen, not an answer. Let me ask my question again:

What is one to do when that authority has gone off the rails on a crazy train of human tradition, self-aggrandizing power, and paranoia?

Well if you can't answer what I asked you already have made your mind up, and on that all I can do is congratulate you and bless you and send you on your way. All I can say is you should do what's in your heart, because that's what your going to do anyway! Not me or anyone else is going to stop that, you have a made up mind. So why don't you just reveal your true intentions. And stead of playing hide and seek. What's your angle? Just be blunt.