Do we have to pay tithes?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I'd like to address this issue first. I am calling this the Paul doctrine. I don't believe Paul is referring to tithes here.

You are obsessed with the word tithe.

[Evang.Benincasa]

TM?

Do you have vanity plates that say TITHE?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I'd like to address this issue first. I am calling this the Paul doctrine. I don't believe Paul is referring to tithes here. You asked for my opinion, so let me have at it. Just to tie this in with Brother Riggan, he says that Paul taught tithing and uses these scriptures. He says this at the one hour mark.

Is Paul talking about tithes here? I think not.

We know that Paul was well versed in the law. We also know that Paul was a Benjamite. Paul knew very well that he was not eligible to receive the tithe, because he was not a Levite. Paul also knew and contended that the Gentiles were not required to follow the law, this was established and confirmed both verbally and in writing as a result of the Council of Jerusalem. It is well established that there were four laws that were relevant to the Gentiles. These were prohibitions against fornication, eating blood, eating animals that had been strangled, and eating food offered to idols.

So Paul, knowing the law as he did, when he wanted to teach doctrine for supporting the ministry, talks about the ox?!

Why didn't he just quote the tithe law?

Why didn't he just talk about the Levites being supported by the tithe?

Why didn't he preach a sermon like Brother Riggan did?

Remember, he studied under Gamaliel. He was well-versed in the law. Yet he didn't just talk about the ox, he also talked about other professions . . .

7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?

He talked about the soldier, the husbandman of the vineyard, and the shepherd. What do the ox, Paul and these professions all have in common?

Anybody know?

None of them were eligible to receive tithes under the law. So why was Paul comparing the ox and these other professions with the ministry? I believe he was saying that he was to be supported by the church, it was only right, ministers have to survive somehow right? We often hear these arguments. Paul was pleading the case based on logic, not on law.

Except for the ox. The ox was law. So the ox is special. So let's talk about the ox. The law against muzzling the ox served a fairly obvious cause. The ox was able to eat as much as he wanted. In this wise the ox was like the Levites, and the widow, and the strangers, and the fatherless, and the strangers.


Deut.26
[12] When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;

Now these people and the ox, were all allowed to eat until they were satisfied. Let me ask a couple of questions about the ox.

Was the ox allowed to take all the wheat or barley back to the barn with him?

Was the ox allowed the tithe of the wheat or barley?

Was the ox allowed to sell the wheat or barley?

Paul wasn't known for being timid in his teaching. He was known for being well educated in the law. His education by Gamaliel was evidently a thing to be sought after. Yet the best he can do is talk about the ox and the soldier, and the shepherd, and the man over the vineyard?

Why was this the best he could do?

I believe it is because the tithing law could not be applied. Think about it.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

The reason why he said that was in the law the tithe was shared with the priest. So he was saying by the plan already set up, Paul also would benefit from the tithe. Like he said the offering goes straight to the church and the ministry. But the 3 tithes were to the priests, the feasts, and the poor.

Based on the Bibles explaination that's why he said Paul was teaching tithing.

I understand that HE said this. The problem is that the Bible doesn't say this. Do you remember the verse being mentioned about adding and subtracting? (Originalist? maybe?)

This is where those verses really come into focus.

Deut.4
[2] Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Deut.12
[32] What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

And context is always important. This is the portion of Deuteronomy where the law in general is being delivered. In relation to this discussion I will post the following scripture. Notice the proximity of verse 12:32 above . . .


Deut.14
[22] Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
[23] And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.

This is in reference to the festival tithe I believe.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

TM?

Do you have vanity plates that say TITHE?

Wow!!!!!!!!

You know I never thought of that! You're giving me ideas.

How about this?

NOTITHE

Because Jesus paid the price!

Bumper stickers, coffee mugs, beach umbrellas . . .

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I'm trying to convert him.

Almost though persuadest me .







. .


Just kidding!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I understand that HE said this. The problem is that the Bible doesn't say this. Do you remember the verse being mentioned about adding and subtracting? (Originalist? maybe?)

This is where those verses really come into focus.

Deut.4
[2] Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Deut.12
[32] What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

And context is always important. This is the portion of Deuteronomy where the law in general is being delivered. In relation to this discussion I will post the following scripture. Notice the proximity of verse 12:32 above . . .


Deut.14
[22] Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year.
[23] And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always.

This is in reference to the festival tithe I believe.

Leviticus 14:22-29 "Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. [23] And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always. [24] And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the Lord thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the Lord thy God hath blessed thee: [25] Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose: [26] And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, [27] And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee. [28] At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: [29] And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest." That shows festival and the poor, and the Levite.

But in Numbers 18:20-32 it shows what Brother Riggen is saying. "And the Lord spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel. [21] And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation. [22] Neither must the children of Israel henceforth come nigh the tabernacle of the congregation, lest they bear sin, and die. [23] But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance. [24] But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the Lord , I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance. [25] And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, [26] Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the Lord , even a tenth part of the tithe. [27] And this your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though it were the corn of the threshingfloor, and as the fulness of the winepress. [28] Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the Lord of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the Lord's heave offering to Aaron the priest. [29] Out of all your gifts ye shall offer every heave offering of the Lord , of all the best thereof, even the hallowed part thereof out of it. [30] Therefore thou shalt say unto them, When ye have heaved the best thereof from it, then it shall be counted unto the Levites as the increase of the threshingfloor, and as the increase of the winepress. [31] And ye shall eat it in every place, ye and your households: for it is your reward for your service in the tabernacle of the congregation. [32] And ye shall bear no sin by reason of it, when ye have heaved from it the best of it: neither shall ye pollute the holy things of the children of Israel, lest ye die."

That's why he's saying Paul was teaching tithing. That's scriptural what he's saying.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

You are obsessed with the word tithe.

I truly did not want to get into this discussion. But I'm trying to learn.
And someone asked me for my opinion. I . . . can't . . . remember . . .

It seems like he had an Italian name.

Benihana? No . . . doesn't seem right. I'm sure I'll think of it.

Besides, I couldn't wait to try out my new posting skills.

Am I rockin' or what?!

:happy dance

OOps, my dancers are not symmetrical. I'll probably get demerits.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

The reason why he said that was in the law the tithe was shared with the priest. So he was saying by the plan already set up,

The only tithing plan that had ever been set up was the one meticulously laid out in great detail and dogmatic terms in the Law? Is that the one you referring to? So I take it that is the system your pastor lives off of...or...err...I mean the system that your priest lives off of.



Paul also would benefit from the tithe. Like he said the offering goes straight to the church and the ministry. But the 3 tithes were to the priests, the feasts, and the poor.



So again, you are insisting Paul is preaching tithes from the Law as being for the church. Okay then. When do your church members get to take their tithe and sell it so they can buy whatever their heart desires and consume it before the Lord? Oh wait. They don't have to sell their tithe because it already is money. But if it already money, then how could it be the tithe you claim Paul is referring to from the Law? And when dos your church give the entire tithe to the widows and poor and such? You see, what your church teaches is not "tithes". It does not mirror the system that you claim was "already established"?





Based on the Bibles explaination that's why he said Paul was teaching tithing. I'd have to say scripturally hes right. If God was saying they were robbing God of tithes and offerings, that's moral law that never fades away.


Horrible argument. You have to first establish that what was being robbed is still require to be collected. You simply have not done that. That's like saying we need to have golden lampstands in our churches because it would have been breaking the moral law to steal one out of the temple.

We don't know if Paul was teaching tithing or not truthfully.


Yet, you will attach the moral law of stealing to it?


We have short letters that became what we call the NT. But they are letters written to certain people for specific reasons. I can say that if it ever was stealing from God and Holy unto the Lord it always will be. And I know that's Brother Riggens reasoning also.



Yet Brother Riggens would most likely disagree with your claim that we don't know if Paul was teaching tithing or not truthfully. He most likely would be dogmatic that Paul was teaching tithing, and he'd be wrong.


He has drawn that conclusion from scripture of 2 or more. "That's line upon line, precept upon precept." It's enough to build doctrine off of I can see it.

You can't take scripture out of its historical context to build doctrine.


I don't believe Brother Riggen is saying this out of trying to twist the scripture. But out of trying to pull the truth out of the word of God the best we can get It today.

Every generation since the Reformation has had its sacred cow they would not let go of. Matthew 28:19 baptismal quotation is the sacred cow of the Evangelicals. Tithing is the sacred cow of the Apostolics.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Leviticus 14:22-29 "Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. [23] And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always. [24] And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the Lord thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the Lord thy God hath blessed thee: [25] Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose: [26] And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, [27] And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee. [28] At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: [29] And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest." That shows festival and the poor, and the Levite.

But in Numbers 18:20-32 it shows what Brother Riggen is saying. "And the Lord spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel. [21] And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation. [22] Neither must the children of Israel henceforth come nigh the tabernacle of the congregation, lest they bear sin, and die. [23] But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance. [24] But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the Lord , I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance. [25] And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, [26] Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the Lord , even a tenth part of the tithe. [27] And this your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though it were the corn of the threshingfloor, and as the fulness of the winepress. [28] Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the Lord of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the Lord's heave offering to Aaron the priest. [29] Out of all your gifts ye shall offer every heave offering of the Lord , of all the best thereof, even the hallowed part thereof out of it. [30] Therefore thou shalt say unto them, When ye have heaved the best thereof from it, then it shall be counted unto the Levites as the increase of the threshingfloor, and as the increase of the winepress. [31] And ye shall eat it in every place, ye and your households: for it is your reward for your service in the tabernacle of the congregation. [32] And ye shall bear no sin by reason of it, when ye have heaved from it the best of it: neither shall ye pollute the holy things of the children of Israel, lest ye die."

That's why he's saying Paul was teaching tithing. That's scriptural what he's saying.

Ladies and Gentlemen. We have a winner!!!!!!!!!!

Give it up for 1ofthechosen. He has stumbled upon truth. The tithe was to be eaten. I'm so happy for you brother! Welcome to the liberty in Christ!!!!
If I weren't technologically challenged, I would put some of those meme things with people cheering and clapping.