Do we have to pay tithes?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Leviticus 14:22-29 "Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. [23] And thou shalt eat before the Lord thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the Lord thy God always. [24] And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the Lord thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the Lord thy God hath blessed thee: [25] Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the Lord thy God shall choose: [26] And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, [27] And the Levite that is within thy gates; thou shalt not forsake him; for he hath no part nor inheritance with thee. [28] At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: [29] And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest." That shows festival and the poor, and the Levite.

But in Numbers 18:20-32 it shows what Brother Riggen is saying. "And the Lord spake unto Aaron, Thou shalt have no inheritance in their land, neither shalt thou have any part among them: I am thy part and thine inheritance among the children of Israel.


So why does Brother Riggen own a home or land, or any pastor for that matter? Why do these guys get to cherry pick from these tithes laws what they want to follow or not follow? Who gave them the authority to make the rules as they go? You are so hung-up on it being the "holy tithe" yet you have no problem with men's grubby hands molding it like it was a piece of clay into the image that suits them. Don't you see what blasphemy this is?


[21] And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation. [22] Neither must the children of Israel henceforth come nigh the tabernacle of the congregation, lest they bear sin, and die. [23] But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance. [24] But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the Lord , I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance. [25] And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, [26] Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the Lord , even a tenth part of the tithe. [27] And this your heave offering shall be reckoned unto you, as though it were the corn of the threshingfloor, and as the fulness of the winepress. [28] Thus ye also shall offer an heave offering unto the Lord of all your tithes, which ye receive of the children of Israel; and ye shall give thereof the Lord's heave offering to Aaron the priest. [29] Out of all your gifts ye shall offer every heave offering of the Lord , of all the best thereof, even the hallowed part thereof out of it. [30] Therefore thou shalt say unto them, When ye have heaved the best thereof from it, then it shall be counted unto the Levites as the increase of the threshingfloor, and as the increase of the winepress. [31] And ye shall eat it in every place, ye and your households: for it is your reward for your service in the tabernacle of the congregation. [32] And ye shall bear no sin by reason of it, when ye have heaved from it the best of it: neither shall ye pollute the holy things of the children of Israel, lest ye die."

That's why he's saying Paul was teaching tithing. That's scriptural what he's saying.

All out of context. I shudder to stand before Jesus having told this lie to God's people. If Trinitarian pastors are going to hell for misapplying Matthew 28:19, then Brother Riggen will be joining them.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Ladies and Gentlemen. We have a winner!!!!!!!!!!

Give it up for 1ofthechosen. He has stumbled upon truth. The tithe was to be eaten. I'm so happy for you brother! Welcome to the liberty in Christ!!!!
If I weren't technologically challenged, I would put some of those meme things with people cheering and clapping.

Originally Posted by Originalist

All out of context. I shudder to stand before Jesus having told this lie to God's people. If Trinitarian pastors are going to hell for misapplying Matthew 28:19, then Brother Riggen will be joining them.

What are you even talking about? The question was why did he say Paul was teaching tithing when he said in 1 Corinthians 9:9-12 "For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? [10] Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. [11] If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? [12] If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ."

He was saying how was he teaching tithing? And I referenced Numbers 18:20-32, because it shows where the ministry got its contribution in the law. From the tithes.

Now as far as the church and Brother Riggen or more than likely he built the church out of his own pockets and the pockets of the congregation. We can see that the Levites had land amongst the people, so they had houses, and animals. They didn't live outside.

If the tenth is holy to the Lord as the scripture says.in Leviticus 27. And in Numbers 18 He says "He has given all the tenth in Israel as an inheritance." Then in Malachi 3:8-9 "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. [9] Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, this whole nation." Calling It robbery because the Levites were taking more of their share, and the rest of the children of Judah weren't giving their tenth. We can stand to say that whatever was robbery to God always was. Of course the civil system of the poor tithe that was went away, considering they were under Roman Rule. Then the feast system which is a ceremonial law which would be fufilled also.

But the tenth is always holy to the Lord. And though we have a 5 fold ministry God's gift unto the church. That would be like the priesthood. It still is God's government of the new covenant, the tenth is still holy unto the Lord. Not out of respect Unto men, but respect unto God. If they do wrong with it that's on them. But my side is going to be right, because I wanna stay correct with God. Never would I rob Him. There is enough evidence to prove what I'm saying. But on the contrary you have nothing to use or say but your opinion. All because you have a personal angle.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Ladies and Gentlemen. We have a winner!!!!!!!!!!

Give it up for 1ofthechosen. He has stumbled upon truth. The tithe was to be eaten. I'm so happy for you brother! Welcome to the liberty in Christ!!!!
If I weren't technologically challenged, I would put some of those meme things with people cheering and clapping.

Whether they ate it or whatever it still doesn't take away from the fact, it was as good as money. It had a value. If you would feel better supporting the ministry in groceries I'm sure they would accept it. What would be your excuse to that?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I'd like to address this issue first. I am calling this the Paul doctrine. I don't believe Paul is referring to tithes here. You asked for my opinion, so let me have at it. Just to tie this in with Brother Riggan, he says that Paul taught tithing and uses these scriptures. He says this at the one hour mark.

Is Paul talking about tithes here? I think not.

We know that Paul was well versed in the law. We also know that Paul was a Benjamite. Paul knew very well that he was not eligible to receive the tithe, because he was not a Levite. Paul also knew and contended that the Gentiles were not required to follow the law, this was established and confirmed both verbally and in writing as a result of the Council of Jerusalem. It is well established that there were four laws that were relevant to the Gentiles. These were prohibitions against fornication, eating blood, eating animals that had been strangled, and eating food offered to idols.

So Paul, knowing the law as he did, when he wanted to teach doctrine for supporting the ministry, talks about the ox?!

Why didn't he just quote the tithe law?

Why didn't he just talk about the Levites being supported by the tithe?

Why didn't he preach a sermon like Brother Riggan did?

Remember, he studied under Gamaliel. He was well-versed in the law. Yet he didn't just talk about the ox, he also talked about other professions . . .

7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?

He talked about the soldier, the husbandman of the vineyard, and the shepherd. What do the ox, Paul and these professions all have in common?

Anybody know?

None of them were eligible to receive tithes under the law. So why was Paul comparing the ox and these other professions with the ministry? I believe he was saying that he was to be supported by the church, it was only right, ministers have to survive somehow right? We often hear these arguments. Paul was pleading the case based on logic, not on law.

Except for the ox. The ox was law. So the ox is special. So let's talk about the ox. The law against muzzling the ox served a fairly obvious cause. The ox was able to eat as much as he wanted. In this wise the ox was like the Levites, and the widow, and the strangers, and the fatherless.


Deut.26
[12] When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;

Now these people and the ox, were all allowed to eat until they were satisfied. Let me ask a couple of questions about the ox.

Was the ox allowed to take all the wheat or barley back to the barn with him?

Was the ox allowed the tithe of the wheat or barley?

Was the ox allowed to sell the wheat or barley?

Paul wasn't known for being timid in his teaching. He was known for being well educated in the law. His education by Gamaliel was evidently a thing to be sought after. Yet the best he can do is talk about the ox and the soldier, and the shepherd, and the man over the vineyard?

Why was this the best he could do?

I believe it is because the tithing law could not be applied. Think about it.

What are you talking about? Paul was telling the Diaspora Judeans living in Corinth that they were to stop supporting others and take care of the ones who established their church. That would of been Paul, Apollos, and Cephas. Just like the Aaronic Levitical Zadokites were maintained by support by physical Israel. The spiritual Israel were to do the same. They weren't to muzzle the oxen that tread the wheat. While they were to preach the word without charge, they expected to live from the Gospel. Why because God ordered that they who preached the Gospel should live from the Gospel. Paul's doctrine? Yeah, Paul's doctrine is this, support the one who teaches you by sharing all you have Galatians 6:6. So much for the TITHE.

There were a number of different tithes, they were conducted by all different groups. From Egyptians to Romans. Everyone knew that they were to support their "priesthood." Melchizedek wasn't an anomaly, it was a given, which thousands of years later in Rome the Romans were doing the same thing n their main temple of Rome.


So, please, refresh my memory on how it looks when you do it at the church where you attend. How do you support the minister[s]?

Do you tithe?

Do you give a dollar a month?

Please, spoon feed.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

What are you even talking about? The question was why did he say Paul was teaching tithing when he said in 1 Corinthians 9:9-12 "For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? [10] Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. [11] If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? [12] If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ."

He was saying how was he teaching tithing? And I referenced Numbers 18:20-32, because it shows where the ministry got its contribution in the law. From the tithes.


Again, there is only one tithe system in the Bible, and you do not follow it.

Now as far as the church and Brother Riggen or more than likely he built the church out of his own pockets and the pockets of the congregation. We can see that the Levites had land amongst the people, so they had houses, and animals. They didn't live outside.


It's not the same.

If the tenth is holy to the Lord as the scripture says.in Leviticus 27. And in Numbers 18 He says "He has given all the tenth in Israel as an inheritance." Then in Malachi 3:8-9 "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. [9] Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, this whole nation." Calling It robbery because the Levites were taking more of their share, and the rest of the children of Judah weren't giving their tenth. We can stand to say that whatever was robbery to God always was.




When what was being robbed from was completely replaced by God himself, it becomes a moot point.


Of course the civil system of the poor tithe that was went away, considering they were under Roman Rule.

Irrelevant. The Romans would not have been paying attention to some sect's distribution to the poor. That was very weak. This is exactly what I'm talking about. You see the obvious conflict and grasp at straws to find a justification. What about now? There are no Romans now. So if we are be true to the tithing laws, we must bring back the distribution of the tithe to the poor at the time prescribed by God in the system "already established".

Then the feast system which is a ceremonial law which would be fufilled also.

Again, you are making changes to the system "already established" that nobody gave you authorization to. You can't claim part of the tithe law was "fulfilled" and the other not. Either it was all fulfilled when the Levitical Priesthood was abolished or it is all in force today, as written. Tithes of food, no money, and distributed differently at different times. Also, only farmers are required to tithe.

But the tenth is always holy to the Lord. And though we have a 5 fold ministry God's gift unto the church. That would be like the priesthood.

CATHOLOCISM!! Every believer is a priest!! Thus all the church then should receive of the tithe s collected.


It still is God's government of the new covenant, the tenth is still holy unto the Lord.

The system "already established" was not for New Testament church leaders. It was for Levitical Priests. it is not the same government. Why aren't you embarrassed?


Not out of respect Unto men, but respect unto God. If they do wrong with it that's on them. But my side is going to be right, because I wanna stay correct with God. Never would I rob Him. There is enough evidence to prove what I'm saying. But on the contrary you have nothing to use or say but your opinion. All because you have a personal angle.

You are completely delusional. You have no evidence except in your delusional mind. This is cultism. I am not expressing an opinion. Rather, I am sharing basic rules of hermeneutics. You , on the other hand, are taking liberties with scriptures in the same way cults do.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Whether they ate it or whatever it still doesn't take away from the fact, it was as good as money. It had a value. If you would feel better supporting the ministry in groceries I'm sure they would accept it. What would be your excuse to that?

Brother, we are searching for truth. On the one hand you say that the tithe is holy. On the other you say that it doesn't matter. Which is it?

You see, you have me all concerned about this eternal moral law angle. And so I have to do it just right. So, well brother . . . I'm trying to figure out who the Levites are, because according to the moral law that does not change, the Levitical tithe would go to whom?

That's right the Levites. I am pretty sure that Brother Riggan is not a Levite.

I'm working on the moral law angle. I will be back. Isn't this fun?!

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Brother, I admire your passion and your knowledge.

But . . . this is our brother here. Let's remember to be kind.

He is willing to learn. We should be willing to teach. Several years ago I was not that far from where he is, you may have been the same way. Now that we have been the beneficiaries of increased knowledge, we should not forget the pit from which we were digged. None of us were born knowing this.

Remember patience.

Please promise to remind me of this if my patience get's short.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Brother, we are searching for truth. On the one hand you say that the tithe is holy. On the other you say that it doesn't matter. Which is it?

You see, you have me all concerned about this eternal moral law angle. And so I have to do it just right. So, well brother . . . I'm trying to figure out who the Levites are, because according to the moral law that does not change, the Levitical tithe would go to whom?

That's right the Levites. I am pretty sure that Brother Riggan is not a Levite.

I'm working on the moral law angle. I will be back. Isn't this fun?!

This is why I would never be welcome back in the UPCI. Even if I was quiet dissenter, there is no wiggle room with them on this. There is no freedom for one to live by the convictions of their conscience. There is no freedom for a believer to seek God on the matter. The seeking is already done for them and if one does not comply they are labeled a thief and under a curse. I would not give a dime to a church that taught this garbage lest I become a partaker of their sins!

[1ofthechosen]

[QUOTE=Originalist;1527807]We can stand to say that whatever was robbery to God always was. When what was being robbed from was completely replaced by God himself, it becomes a moot point/QUOTE]

Where did He replace it? 1 scripture that says tithes were replaced by God Himself in the NT. I'll give you 22 million dollars if you can show one.

Everything else you said is not worth my time to answer. So when you get that NT scripture let me know. I'm waiting, I didn't think there was another part of the Bible I've never seen. But I'm holding my breath until you get it.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Brother, I admire your passion and your knowledge.

But . . . this is our brother here. Let's remember to be kind.

He is willing to learn. We should be willing to teach. Several years ago I was not that far from where he is, you may have been the same way. Now that we have been the beneficiaries of increased knowledge, we should not forget the pit from which we were digged. None of us were born knowing this.

Remember patience.

Please promise to remind me of this if my patience get's short.

Point taken.