Do we have to pay tithes?

[Aquila]

The context of Malachi 3:9 is not comparable to our modern NT circumstance.

-We have no Levitical priesthood who are forbidden to own land or property who need the tithe to survive.
-We have no temple.
-The tithes are to be produce, grain, and livestock.
-The tithes collected are not used in accordance to the Law of Moses with regards to the "storehouse" for the poor.
-The tithe isn't binding upon the entire nation.

This system doesn't exist. Therefore, one cannot sin against it.

Now, this isn't to say that we shouldn't support the ministry or the work of the Lord. In fact, it frees us to be far more generous when able, and for those who cannot afford a tithe to give as able.

I believe that the NT presents us with a better option which I've heard called, "Grace Giving". This model of giving is composed of free will offerings and vows (pledges).

I believe "grace giving" becomes superior to tithing. In "grace giving", not only do individuals give voluntary offerings as led when the needs of the church are brought before the body, but individuals can prayerfully "vow" (or pledge) to give so much per check. This can be a percentage of their check, or even a certain amount over a period of time (for example pledging to give $3000 over a year's time). This way the church can make financial forecasts, etc. In this way a responsibility to give is established, but what to give is decided in the heart of the individual.

Can an individual choose to give 10%? Certainly! But this isn't a legalistic mandate with the threat of hellfire attached to it. In fact, families of more meager income can pledge a lower percentage or amount. And those of greater income can give as much as 90% of their income should they desire. None are shut out and all are blessed by giving. The widow and her mite isn't denied full fellowship because she can't afford to both tithe and pay for her medications.

Paul wrote that hose who give bountifully will reap a bountiful reward. Those who give sparingly will receive sparingly...

2 Corinthians 9:6-10 English Standard Version (ESV)
6 The point is this: whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work. 9 As it is written,
“He has distributed freely, he has given to the poor;
his righteousness endures forever.”
10 He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness.

So, the principle of blessing in accordance to sacrifice does apply.

Most multi-million dollar charities and non-profit organizations function this way. Also, most television and radio ministries function this way. And most are more successful (statistically speaking) in maintaining their operations than the average church start-up.

This is why I am an advocate for "grace giving".

[n david]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

There is no need for my answer you have quoted him. But you are dodging the real argument. What Brother Riggen is saying about Malachi 3:9, that the scholars back up as being right. Matter of fact there is not a commentary I read that says any different!

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/malachi/3-9.htm

I'm not dodging anything. Malachi 3:9 is not about the general population of Israel. It was written about the priests and Levites. It connects to Nehemiah 13.

Riggen is wrong as two boys kissing. Not paying tithes is not the same as stealing from God. Nor will anyone go to hell for not paying tithes. Also, he's an extortioner.

From last week:

Originally Posted by n david

Here's irony: He quotes 1 Corinthians 6 and screams multiple times about the "nor thieves," but ignores the "nor extortioners."

Extortion: the practice of obtaining something, especially money, through force or threats.

He's literally extorting tithes in this message, but it's okay apparently.

So if people who don't pay the 10% tithe are "thieves" who won't make it to heaven, preachers who extort tithes are also not going to heaven, including Rev. Riggen. Of course, he wouldn't agree with that view.

[Aquila]

I do know men who are torn because they sincerely feel in their spirit that there is a spiritual principle behind tithing that the church should experience. And for this reason, they do not wish to surrender on the doctrine of tithing.

I want to say that Grace Giving doesn't negate the principles of tithing, nor does it forbid tithing. In fact, Grace Giving liberates tithing.

A ministry that functions by Grace Giving can establish what could be called, "Covenant Partners", or "Partners in Ministry". Through such a program, the ministry can strongly challenge members to support the ministry through the experience of tithing (which in OT times established covenant). Those who wish to partner with the church and/or ministry can voluntarily vow (or pledge) to give 10% of their income (a tithe).

In this fashion, the principle of tithing can be experienced in the NT context of grace, wherein one is free to give as they have purposed in their heart.

There leaves no need to threaten Hell to get people to tithe. In fact, think about it. If someone threatens another with harm in order to convince another to hand over their money... that's more akin to robbery, or even worse... extortion. Grace Giving can prevent that dynamic while encouraging that those who are truly able tithe to support the work of God, cheerfully, lovingly, and graciously...without disenfranchising those who are truly too poor to commit to such a covenant.

I believe that the practice of tithing can be a blessed thing if liberated from OT legalistic mandates. If handled in this manner, Grace Giving can actually save and sanctify the practice of tithing beyond the OT law.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The context of Malachi 3:9 is not comparable to our modern NT circumstance.

-We have no Levitical priesthood who are forbidden to own land or property who need the tithe to survive.
-We have no temple.
-The tithes are to be produce, grain, and livestock.
-The tithes collected are not used in accordance to the Law of Moses with regards to the "storehouse" for the poor.
-The tithe isn't binding upon the entire nation.

This system doesn't exist. Therefore, one cannot sin against it.

Now, this isn't to say that we shouldn't support the ministry or the work of the Lord. In fact, it frees us to be far more generous when able, and for those who cannot afford a tithe to give as able.

I believe that the NT presents us with a better option which I've heard called, "Grace Giving". This model of giving is composed of free will offerings and vows (pledges).

I believe "grace giving" becomes superior to tithing. In "grace giving", not only do individuals give voluntary offerings as led when the needs of the church are brought before the body, but individuals can prayerfully "vow" (or pledge) to give so much per check. This can be a percentage of their check, or even a certain amount over a period of time (for example pledging to give $3000 over a year's time). This way the church can make financial forecasts, etc. In this way a responsibility to give is established, but what to give is decided in the heart of the individual.

Can an individual choose to give 10%? Certainly! But this isn't a legalistic mandate with the threat of hellfire attached to it. In fact, families of more meager income can pledge a lower percentage or amount. And those of greater income can give as much as 90% of their income should they desire. None are shut out and all are blessed by giving. The widow and her mite isn't denied full fellowship because she can't afford to both tithe and pay for her medications.

Paul wrote that hose who give bountifully will reap a bountiful reward. Those who give sparingly will receive sparingly...

2 Corinthians 9:6-10 English Standard Version (ESV)
6 The point is this: whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. 7 Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that having all sufficiency in all things at all times, you may abound in every good work. 9 As it is written,
“He has distributed freely, he has given to the poor;
his righteousness endures forever.”
10 He who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will supply and multiply your seed for sowing and increase the harvest of your righteousness.

So, the principle of blessing in accordance to sacrifice does apply.

Most multi-million dollar charities and non-profit organizations function this way. Also, most television and radio ministries function this way. And most are more successful (statistically speaking) in maintaining their operations than the average church start-up.

This is why I am an advocate for "grace giving".

I think we've well established all that bro. You and 4 other people are going to come right after you and say this. It's crazy how fundamental they get when it comes to tithing, as they get when it comes to being saved and formulas of baptisms entail!

But all I'm simply saying which almost every commentary had scholars saying the same thing. Not paying tithes was robbery to God. I have to break it to you, but if anything is robbery to God it always is!

Now I'm sure we can get all fundamental and be like he means the crops, and the cattle and this and that. But we all have increase. There has been a principal given, there was a judgement set against those who didn't want to give to God. He called it stealing.

While I agree we have no exact template to follow, but we all have increase. We all have the word at our fingertips readily these days, so it's not a lack of not knowing of the principal. In fact you all can quote it very well. All this heaven and hell mess aside, we all see that giving is pleasing to God. We also see He doesn't like when people don't give, and are selfish. Why don't we follow the Spirit of the law, and give out our first fruits?

Why don't we readily give unto the Lord, not to the man. For the simple fact "it's pleasing unto God?"

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by n david

I'm not dodging anything. Malachi 3:9 is not about the general population of Israel. It was written about the priests and Levites. It connects to Nehemiah 13.

Riggen is wrong as two boys kissing. Not paying tithes is not the same as stealing from God. Nor will anyone go to hell for not paying tithes. Also, he's an extortioner.

From last week:

Every commentary on that page says the samething. In fact the one you quoted said the samething. None, absolutely none of those commentaries on a whole page support your claim on Malachi 3:9.

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/malachi/3-9.htm

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

I think we've well established all that bro. You and 4 other people are going to come right after you and say this. It's crazy how fundamental they get when it comes to tithing, as they get when it comes to being saved and formulas of baptisms entail!

But all I'm simply saying which almost every commentary had scholars saying the same thing. Not paying tithes was robbery to God. I have to break it to you, but if anything is robbery to God it always is!


For those who the command was given to, yes, it will always be robbery to God. But those who the commandment was given to are long dead, as well as the tithe system they robbed from. Why is this so hard for you to grasp?


Now I'm sure we can get all fundamental and be like he means the crops, and the cattle and this and that. But we all have increase. There has been a principal given, there was a judgement set against those who didn't want to give to God. He called it stealing.

While I agree we have no exact template to follow, but we all have increase. We all have the word at our fingertips readily these days, so it's not a lack of not knowing of the principal. In fact you all can quote it very well. All this heaven and hell mess aside, we all see that giving is pleasing to God. We also see He doesn't like when people don't give, and are selfish. Why don't we follow the Spirit of the law, and give out our first fruits?

Why don't we readily give unto the Lord, not to the man. For the simple fact "it's pleasing unto God?"

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I do know men who are torn because they sincerely feel in their spirit that there is a spiritual principle behind tithing that the church should experience. And for this reason, they do not wish to surrender on the doctrine of tithing.

I want to say that Grace Giving doesn't negate the principles of tithing, nor does it forbid tithing. In fact, Grace Giving liberates tithing.

A ministry that functions by Grace Giving can establish what could be called, "Covenant Partners", or "Partners in Ministry". Through such a program, the ministry can strongly challenge members to support the ministry through the experience of tithing (which in OT times established covenant). Those who wish to partner with the church and/or ministry can voluntarily vow (or pledge) to give 10% of their income (a tithe).

In this fashion, the principle of tithing can be experienced in the NT context of grace, wherein one is free to give as they have purposed in their heart.

There leaves no need to threaten Hell to get people to tithe. In fact, think about it. If someone threatens another with harm in order to convince another to hand over their money... that's more akin to robbery, or even worse... extortion. Grace Giving can prevent that dynamic while encouraging that those who are truly able tithe to support the work of God, cheerfully, lovingly, and graciously...without disenfranchising those who are truly too poor to commit to such a covenant.

I believe that the practice of tithing can be a blessed thing if liberated from OT legalistic mandates. If handled in this manner, Grace Giving can actually save and sanctify the practice of tithing beyond the OT law.

I agree with this Aquila. That makes sense to me. But if someone sees something in scripture and is telling you the truth of what the scripture says, that's not extortion. Especially if the scripture says you have robbed God in tithes and offerings. To not warn someone otherwise, would be to not tell them the whole truth. He said Malachi 3:9 + 1 Corinthians 6:9-10= you won't inherit the kingdom of God.

If I didn't know the man personally I would think differently. We're not talking about Creflo Dollar here!

But I do understand what you are saying, and that's how I give. My pastor never even says anything about tithes at all. Never! But telling people what scripture says is right. But people have focused in on one thing, and ran with it. I will go with he misinterpreted scripture, but the rest of these claims aren't the case.

But at the same time this whole spin off of Malachi 3:9 is not backed by any commentary on this whole page.

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/malachi/3-9.htm

While I don't look to scholars, if this Nehemiah 13 being the interpretation I believe one scholar should support it.

Thats truthfully all I'm saying.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Originalist

For those who the command was given to, yes, it will always be robbery to God. But those who the commandment was given to are long dead, as well as the tithe system they robbed from. Why is this so hard for you to grasp?

Bro I understand that. But we see what pleases God and displeases Him.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

I think we've well established all that bro. You and 4 other people are going to come right after you and say this. It's crazy how fundamental they get when it comes to tithing, as they get when it comes to being saved and formulas of baptisms entail!

But all I'm simply saying which almost every commentary had scholars saying the same thing. Not paying tithes was robbery to God. I have to break it to you, but if anything is robbery to God it always is!

Now I'm sure we can get all fundamental and be like he means the crops, and the cattle and this and that. But we all have increase. There has been a principal given, there was a judgement set against those who didn't want to give to God. He called it stealing.

While I agree we have no exact template to follow, but we all have increase. We all have the word at our fingertips readily these days, so it's not a lack of not knowing of the principal. In fact you all can quote it very well. All this heaven and hell mess aside, we all see that giving is pleasing to God. We also see He doesn't like when people don't give, and are selfish. Why don't we follow the Spirit of the law, and give out our first fruits?

Why don't we readily give unto the Lord, not to the man. For the simple fact "it's pleasing unto God?"

I'm first going to share something I know you've already heard. But stick with me...

The tithe was connected to the land. Only Produce derived from the seed of Israel whether from field, tree or herd. If one wanted to tithe money, it wasn't a tithe because one could not consume money. The tithe had to be eaten before the Lord in a time of celebration, in a community God approved for that year (Deut.14:23). Also, if one wanted to give money or other goods, it was called an heave offering. It was also a free will offering. A tithe was ten percent of one's harvest, not income.

Leviticus 27:30, "And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD’S: it is holy unto the LORD."

Deuteronomy 14:22, "Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year."

Leviticus 27:32, "And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD."

Deuteronomy 14:23, "And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always."

In fact, if one studies Judaism and rabbinical writings one will quickly learn that the only two classes of people ordered to tithe are the landowners and the Levites within the boarders of Israel. The stranger, orphan, and widow received tithes from the local landowners, and were also exempted from tithing. Others like, fishermen, carpenters and all other non farmers and craftsmen of any occupation are exempt from tithing as well if they did not own and farm their land.

The disciples that were fishermen, weren't required to tithe.

The wage earning tax collector, Matthew, wasn't required to tithe.

Jesus, prior to his ministry, was a carpenter. Carpenters were not required to tithe.

That brings us to your position.

Your position focuses on the notion of God desiring our "increase" regardless as to if it is related to farming or not. Your position is also that God never changes.

If that were truly so... why didn't God seek or require a tithe of such non-farming related "increase" in the Bible? Why were carpenters, stone masons, fishermen, merchants, traders, weavers, and other professions exempt from tithing??? If God never changes (like you stated)... then aren't all non-farming professions still exempt from tithing today? And doesn't this prove that God wasn't concerned with any "increase"...unless it was in relation to farming and its connection with the "holy land"?

So, I believe your position in regards to the claim that God never changes, and that God desires our "increase" actually defeats itself when compared to what the "Bible" defines as tithe-able increase and those professions that were exempt from tithing. If God never changes, nor would His definition of "increase", nor would His definition of exempted classes and professions.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Will a man rob God?

Who are thee people Chris?

Are they related to you?