Saved Without A Pastor?? - Page 43

Amanah · #**421** 06-25-2018, 09:21 AM

From what I understand of the NT Church, everyone was under authority, local elders were under area overseers, who answered to the Jerusalem council, who were subject to each other under the leadership of the Holy Ghost, right?

People are not just out there doing their own thing, everyone is under authority.

Evang.Benincasa · #**422** 06-25-2018, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanah

From what I understand of the NT Church, everyone was under authority, local elders were under area overseers, who answered to the Jerusalem council, who were subject to each other under the leadership of the Holy Ghost, right?

People are not just out there doing their own thing, everyone is under authority.

If they weren't we wouldn't have not ONE epistle concerning church instruction.

Tithesmeister · #**423** 06-25-2018, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Are you saying that is the kind of pastor Phil White is?

No. I'm not saying that at all, and I really appreciate you asking for explanation if that's what you think. I said I respect Phil White. If I believed that he was this way, I would have no respect for him. I like Brother White, I like his preaching, I like that he is a man's man. He is no sissy. What I'm saying is that this was not, in my opinion, his finest hour. I don't want to base my opinion of him on this incident, as I surely wouldn't want to have my whole life judged by some isolated things that I have said and done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Could you tell me his history in the ministry?

No. I don't know him that well.

Tithesmeister · #**424** 06-25-2018, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

How many of your children are teenagers? Male or females?

You experience as a teenager would be a question better suited for your parents.

I'm asking about your children.

One male. And you?

Evang.Benincasa · #**425** 06-25-2018, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

One male. And you?

Two daughters.

Now, I want them to always respect the ministry. They do, and that no matter what will happen in their future they can remember what they were taught. I don't bring up ministers over the pulpit in a negative fashion. Teenagers can be greatly affected when we as parents make judgements concerning the pastor, or other elders in our movement.

Isn't that correct?

Evang.Benincasa · #**426** 06-25-2018, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

No. I'm not saying that at all, and I really appreciate you asking for explanation if that's what you think. I said I respect Phil White. If I believed that he was this way, I would have no respect for him. I like Brother White, I like his preaching, I like that he is a man's man. He is no sissy. What I'm saying is that this was not, in my opinion, his finest hour. I don't want to base my opinion of him on this incident, as I surely wouldn't want to have my whole life judged by some isolated things that I have said and done.

Excellent answer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

No. I don't know him that well.

OK, your above answer also answered this question.

Apostolic1ness · #**427** 06-25-2018, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Two daughters.

Now, I want them to always respect the ministry. They do, and that no matter what will happen in their future they can remember what they were taught. I don't bring up ministers over the pulpit in a negative fashion. Teenagers can be greatly affected when we as parents make judgements concerning the pastor, or other elders in our movement.

Isn't that correct?

Amen, there would be many more people on apostolic pews if parents would have had that level of understanding.

Tithesmeister · #**428** 06-25-2018, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amanah

From what I understand of the NT Church, everyone was under authority, local elders were under area overseers, who answered to the Jerusalem council, who were subject to each other under the leadership of the Holy Ghost, right?

People are not just out there doing their own thing, everyone is under authority.

I think this is more or less accurate, when understood through the filter that there was no sole authority in any individual church, or even in the Council of Jerusalem. If you consider this meeting (that we have more or less dubbed the Council of Jerusalem) it is very similar to the church. While I have asked the question repeatedly, "who was the pastor of this church of that one in the New Testament church, nobody has been able to answer. I think it is pretty obvious to those of us that are active in this discussion that the leadership model for the NT church was a plurality of elders. The same seems to be true at Jerusalem. Who was the sole solitary leader? Some say Peter (the RCC certainly does) others say James. My point is that there is no solid scriptural evidence, either at the local church level, or the Hazelwood Missouri level.

Then there is this:

Bible, King James Version

1Cor.11
[3] But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

I think that this conflicts with the "head of every man is his pastor" culture that is propagated today in the apostolic church. I think leadership is needed, but lordship (lower case l) is to be avoided. The danger is where you put your faith. Paul said follow me as I follow Christ. I think the words should cause us to consider and analyze the motives, intentions and the veracity of our pastors and elders.

Paul said of the saints at Berea . . .

Bible, King James Version

Acts.17
[11] These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Paul makes a head to head comparison between the saints of these to churches, and declares the saints at Berea are more noble because they didn't just accept the word, but also verified it. Today these same saints might be considered troublemakers, and the saints at Thessalonica would likely be exalted.

So what is the scriptural model?

This one . . .

Eph.5
[21] Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
[22] Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord

Wives being submissive to the pastor INSTEAD of their own husbands is in direct conflict with the Bible, yet there are many who believe that it should be done.

Tithesmeister · #**429** 06-25-2018, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Two daughters.

Now, I want them to always respect the ministry. They do, and that no matter what will happen in their future they can remember what they were taught. I don't bring up ministers over the pulpit in a negative fashion. Teenagers can be greatly affected when we as parents make judgements concerning the pastor, or other elders in our movement.

Isn't that correct?

Yes. This is correct.

Evang.Benincasa · #**430** 06-25-2018, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I think this is more or less accurate, when understood through the filter that there was no sole authority in any individual church, or even in the Council of Jerusalem. If you consider this meeting (that we have more or less dubbed the Council of Jerusalem) it is very similar to the church. While I have asked the question repeatedly, "who was the pastor of this church of that one in the New Testament church, nobody has been able to answer. I think it is pretty obvious to those of us that are active in this discussion that the leadership model for the NT church was a plurality of elders. The same seems to be true at Jerusalem. Who was the sole solitary leader? Some say Peter (the RCC certainly does) others say James. My point is that there is no solid scriptural evidence, either at the local church level, or the Hazelwood Missouri level.

Then there is this:

Bible, King James Version

1Cor.11
[3] But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

I think that this conflicts with the "head of every man is his pastor" culture that is propagated today in the apostolic church. I think leadership is needed, but lordship (lower case l) is to be avoided. The danger is where you put your faith. Paul said follow me as I follow Christ. I think the words should cause us to consider and analyze the motives, intentions and the veracity of our pastors and elders.

Paul said of the saints at Berea . . .

Bible, King James Version

Acts.17
[11] These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Paul makes a head to head comparison between the saints of these to churches, and declares the saints at Berea are more noble because they didn't just accept the word, but also verified it. Today these same saints might be considered troublemakers, and the saints at Thessalonica would likely be exalted.

So what is the scriptural model?

This one . . .

Eph.5
[21] Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
[22] Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord

Wives being submissive to the pastor INSTEAD of their own husbands is in direct conflict with the Bible, yet there are many who believe that it should be done.

The man who won't submit to Christ as his pastor, he will never submit to any minister.

Wives submit to their husbands in everything. Yet, a woman who won't submit to her husband will never submit to Christ.