BY THIS STANDARD-Greg L. Bahnsen

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

And, against all this absurd monstrosity of human "wisdom" stands the Bible, the revealed Word of God. Christians cannot be consistently Christian while supporting and adhering to this humanistic theory of the "social contract".

I can see some truth in that.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

are upholding the principles of Life, Liberty, and private Property theonomic?

off the top of my head I would say that the bible:
*protects life
*liberty is based on obedience to God. A theonomic society is free in as far as people obey the bible and don't commit sins against God and each other.
*The bible protects property, theft demands restitution.

The very thought that people have rights came from the bible.

I agree with Alexis De Tocqueville that our Republic works as long as our nation is a Christian Nation.

The problem is that what you mean by "rights" and what Locke, Hobbes, Rousseau, and Jefferson meant by "rights" may not be quite the same thing, particularly as regards to the origin and mechanisms of those rights.

Where does the Bible say a person has inherent rights? Biblical rights are the right to obey God, and stem from Divinely imposed obligations. Right to property is not based on some abstract inherent sovereignty of man, but rather on 1) God's dispositions and grants of property stewardship to people, and 2) God's prohibitions against interference with that stewardship by others.

Man does not have unlimited license to do what he wants. And civic duty is not based in man's voluntary "social contract", but in God's imposition of moral and ethical obligations.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The problem is that what you mean by "rights" and what Locke, Hobbes, Rousseau, and Jefferson meant by "rights" may not be quite the same thing, particularly as regards to the origin and mechanisms of those rights.

Where does the Bible say a person has inherent rights? Biblical rights are the right to obey God, and stem from Divinely imposed obligations. Right to property is not based on some abstract inherent sovereignty of man, but rather on 1) God's dispositions and grants of property stewardship to people, and 2) God's prohibitions against interference with that stewardship by others.

Man does not have unlimited license to do what he wants. And civic duty is not based in man's voluntary "social contract", but in God's imposition of moral and ethical obligations.

Since we can not over throw the government, theonomy can only exist in the heart? The law is written in the heart by the Spirit.
and of course we study the bible to understand how to obey God's commandments.

https://distributarian.com/pdf%20Doc...w%20Theory.pdf

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Since we can not over throw the government, theonomy can only exist in the heart? The law is written in the heart by the Spirit.
and of course we study the bible to understand how to obey God's commandments.

https://distributarian.com/pdf%20Doc...w%20Theory.pdf

The Kingdom is planted in the heart and produces fruit (outward manifestation of the will of God) in the form of actions. Faith without works is dead.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Esaias, what you're advocating is not the Kingdom of God. It is the Kingdom of Rushdoony, and religio-statists who don't have the faith, nor power, to advance a kingdom without assuming the power of coercion. You're "Christian soldiers" are dying for an idol called "Christian Reconstructionism", which is only an interpretation of men.

The true Kingdom is within us. Ruled directly by Christ, through the Holy Spirit. We do live biblically, but we are not beholden to any earthly government... even if it flies a Christian banner.

Assuming that America were to become "Reconstructed" tomorrow, where would those like me, who oppose it, protest against it, preach against it, admonish obedience to Christ alone, and actively denounce it, stand?

Explain how you would oppose a social order founded on obedience to Christ alone while "preaching obedience to Christ alone"? That makes no sense. Does obedience to Christ alone mean that we should oppose the criminalization of robbery, rape, murder? That we should stand against the idea of people looking to the Bible for guidance?

Absurd.

[Wilsonwas]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Explain how you would oppose a social order founded on obedience to Christ alone while "preaching obedience to Christ alone"? That makes no sense. Does obedience to Christ alone mean that we should oppose the criminalization of robbery, rape, murder? That we should stand against the idea of people looking to the Bible for guidance?

Absurd.

That society so long as its govenment remains limited to arbitrating between disputes, maintaining law consistant with just the ten commandments, maintaining interstate commerce and provides for comman defense even if theocratic would be fine.

It is the nature of humans with power to desire more, and since the fall of Adam, to corrupt....the limits would creep, much like the results evident in our current republic, to lean either toward a band of theocracy that limits eventually even thought to its dogma, and view of doctrine, or a band of Atheistic humanism that eventually leads to socialism.

It is the erosion of these limits on gooberment power over individual or group, that always leads to tyranny so long as those humans in charge remain Adam's seed in its failed state.

For this reason I oppose both theocracy and socialism, prefering a min-archist, volunteerist form. At least until Christ reigns in the absense of the enemy.

The US constitution, represents the closest humanity has come to a government that limited in power - it is imperfect but preferred to any other form exhibited on earth currently. The imperfection has allowed this to wane toward tyranny of the citified majority of voters, and the corruption of global corporatism....

A theocratic government will wane toward the kind of tyranny evident in areas controlled by the Taliban- which would be fine for you perhaps were you in the upper roles of the ruling class, but unfortunate if you are resistant to any particilar brand of interpretation or doctrine contained under the "brand" christianity thst may be different from your own.

Evidence of how this could be contentious is available within our churches, and even the microcosm of this forum where huge difference exists regarding Deut. 22, beards, etc. Such a society of imperfect men, and satan "going about as a roaring lion", would regress to civil war in a matter of generations.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Wilsonwas

That society so long as its govenment remains limited to arbitrating between disputes, maintaining law consistant with just the ten commandments, maintaining interstate commerce and provides for comman defense even if theocratic would be fine.

It is the nature of humans with power to desire more, and since the fall of Adam, to corrupt....the limits would creep, much like the results evident in our current republic, to lean either toward a band of theocracy that limits eventually even thought to its dogma, and view of doctrine, or a band of Atheistic humanism that eventually leads to socialism.

It is the erosion of these limits on gooberment power over individual or group, that always leads to tyranny so long as those humans in charge remain Adam's seed in its failed state.

For this reason I oppose both theocracy and socialism, prefering a min-archist, volunteerist form. At least until Christ reigns in the absense of the enemy.

The US constitution, represents the closest humanity has come to a government that limited in power - it is imperfect but preferred to any other form exhibited on earth currently. The imperfection has allowed this to wane toward tyranny of the citified majority of voters, and the corruption of global corporatism....

A theocratic government will wane toward the kind of tyranny evident in areas controlled by the Taliban- which would be fine for you perhaps were you in the upper roles of the ruling class, but unfortunate if you are resistant to any particilar brand of interpretation or doctrine contained under the "brand" christianity thst may be different from your own.

Evidence of how this could be contentious is available within our churches, and even the microcosm of this forum where huge difference exists regarding Deut. 22, beards, etc. Such a society of imperfect men, and satan "going about as a roaring lion", would regress to civil war in a matter of generations.

So, because men are wicked and corrupt, we should seek that form of society devised by men, instead of that devised by God?

[Esaias]

Here is a trinitarian, Reformed theonomist answer to the charge "Theonomy doesn't work". If you can ignore the two virtue signals to trinitarian dogma, you may be able to understand what the "push for theonomy" has accomplished, and is accomplishing.

https://chalcedon.edu/magazine/what-...ng-of-gods-law

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Wilsonwas

That society so long as its govenment remains limited to arbitrating between disputes, maintaining law consistant with just the ten commandments, maintaining interstate commerce and provides for comman defense even if theocratic would be fine.

It is the nature of humans with power to desire more, and since the fall of Adam, to corrupt....the limits would creep, much like the results evident in our current republic, to lean either toward a band of theocracy that limits eventually even thought to its dogma, and view of doctrine, or a band of Atheistic humanism that eventually leads to socialism.

It is the erosion of these limits on gooberment power over individual or group, that always leads to tyranny so long as those humans in charge remain Adam's seed in its failed state.

For this reason I oppose both theocracy and socialism, prefering a min-archist, volunteerist form. At least until Christ reigns in the absense of the enemy.

The US constitution, represents the closest humanity has come to a government that limited in power - it is imperfect but preferred to any other form exhibited on earth currently. The imperfection has allowed this to wane toward tyranny of the citified majority of voters, and the corruption of global corporatism....

A theocratic government will wane toward the kind of tyranny evident in areas controlled by the Taliban- which would be fine for you perhaps were you in the upper roles of the ruling class, but unfortunate if you are resistant to any particilar brand of interpretation or doctrine contained under the "brand" christianity thst may be different from your own.

Evidence of how this could be contentious is available within our churches, and even the microcosm of this forum where huge difference exists regarding Deut. 22, beards, etc. Such a society of imperfect men, and satan "going about as a roaring lion", would regress to civil war in a matter of generations.

You do realize that God's law provides no penalty for facial hair decisions, and some other issues we debate here, right? Debate, discussion, etc are necessary and good. Political debates over interpretation and application of law occur all the time anyway.

Just about every charge against theonomy can be also levied against practically every other system of law and ethics. And that way lies Nietzsche and Ragnar Redbeard and Thrasymachus.

[Amanah]

God’s law has changed society over the millennia. Even now, the structure of government itself is transformed in America where a theonomic country emerged against all odds embodying an odd mix of secular and sacred. Yet its legal and political structure is both self-consciously theonomic and self-consciously secularized … Secularized what? It’s God’s law that was secularized and “improved on.” See? It is theonomy that the secularists are working with.

The Bill of Rights and the limited government these rights demand are fundamentally Mosaic ideas. The first three commandments require that government must be structured so that it cannot deceive the governors into thinking they are God. Government for Moses is always a gift of God. It is not of ourselves, lest any men should boast as if they give and create rights. Rights and protection from both government and the evildoers alike are fundamental Mosaic ideas from God. The structure of the Constitution is one way to create a first commandment-compliant political order.

Follow me here: The idea that government should be limited to certain tasks and kept strictly out of others? The idea that the government is not the highest authority? The idea that your house and possessions should be safe from search and seizure? The idea that you have a part in selecting your rulers? The idea that judgment is the job of the people who make up the jury? The idea that you own your property, its damages, its debts, and its profits? The idea that men’s minds are not the property of the state? The idea that there is private property? Who you associate with is not the business of government enforcement? … I could go on.

That’s straight-up theonomy, baby, and you are right! It doesn’t work … for long! But it sure feels good during the brief periods when it is tried. And maybe, just maybe, though it doesn’t “work” right now, it is the result of God’s law working with us to create at every level a freedom undreamt of by those who came before.

Raising the Foundations of Many Generations
As the body politic of self-governing people grows they become capable of higher and higher levels of self-government. The Biblical image for this is that they grow into the fullness of the maturity of Christ. When this happens, they start restricting the ways other governments force them into an authoritarian mold. For example, children need authoritarian parents. The purpose of authoritarian parents is to grow children up into free adults who do not need authoritarian parents. Real adults do not need the top-down state either. That civil organization or free state of self-governing people is the theonomic, Mosaic, Jesus-endorsed Holy Spirit-effected, Pauline ideal. All theonomic laws and punishments were designed for that political environment. Without acting as if we live in the benefits of that end times political environment, and with the insight of those who went before, we do the best we can in our various forms of syncretism while praying for the Holy Spirit to carry us to the next step of His work to transform and fill the earth.

This is no utopian dream.

The United States would have been considered a utopian dream by the serfs and peasants of 1384, precisely like the unimaginable dream of theonomy reflected in the opening comments. The idea that there is more freedom than a bureaucratic church or state can muster is condemned by everyone today, especially traditional postmillennial theonomists. But Wycliffe put in the preface of his Bible translation that his vision for translating Scripture was of a people discipled in their hearts by God’s Word so that a “government of the People, By the People and For the People” could be established. His utopian dream was partially realized by the Parliaments of Europe and later by the US of A and still (by comparison to the fourteenth century) it is realized by most of Europe—there are no more serfs: they have been transformed. It is idealized by much of the planet simply by looking where they all want to migrate to.

Perhaps theonomy’s greatest endorsement is the deadly enmity toward it exhibited by all collectivist and authoritarian governments: their secret police, their armies, and their theoreticians. They can see what we, its beneficiaries, have a hard time seeing: the theonomic social structures of freedom from God we utterly take for granted while we’re busy scoffing at the hijacking in Philadelphia.
But theonomy has only just begun to have its transformative impact.
We are only 4,500 years into the project.

https://chalcedon.edu/magazine/what-...ng-of-gods-law