UPC, ALJC, PAW, etc.

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by derAlte

I have no doubt that this happens. Sin must be dealt with. But to simplistically assume that because a church hasn't achieved a state of absolute perfection doesn't mean the pastor isn't doing his job. It's a question of timing. Genuine God-called pastors actually love their people (what a concept!) and sincerely want them to be saved. They await the unction of the Holy Ghost as to the timing for dealing with things. They know that it is not God's will that any perish. Any uninformed, opinionated knot-head can get in a pulpit and destroy what it may have taken years for a pastor to build up. Jesus dealt with the sin of the woman at the well with gentleness and compassion at the perfect time. Jesus told of a tree that didn't bear fruit. Like many of us, it was urged to just cut the silly thing down. But the heart of Jesus was expressed when he told of the husbandman who wanted more time to fertilize it. We need to allow pastors to follow the example of the Lord Jesus Christ and give them the space to deal with folks so they can be saved.

I agree...

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

blowing up new converts? I think you take me a little more harsh that intended.

If that is the case, then my apologies.

[hometown guy]

Originally Posted by Ehud

Yes, if a pastor simply refuses to take a stand against sin in any shape, form, or fashion, then he is in the wrong. I doubt anyone is going to argue against that. But another reason "sin runs rampant" in some churches is because they open their doors to anyone and everyone. Instead of sounding the alarm "to take a stand," scaring off every visitor, and preaching to the same 20 saints for 35 years, the pastor just might know what he is doing by caring for a community and allowing God to do His job. Preaching Jesus from the pulpit and handling problems/sin in private is not the same as being too cowardly to take a stand against sin. That's the "longsuffering" part of your scripture reference. That pastor must have the patience of Job when dealing with such issues on a routine basis. I see no reason why teaching in private doesn't qualify as reproving, rebuking, and exhorting.

Perhaps you think killing a fly with a Howitzer is the way to go, but blowing up new converts doesn't sound very efficient. You said preachers don't preach for sport but are to be led of God. Why is it that only allows for your straight-forward approach, but not the pragmatic approach I'm defending? I'm certainly not saying there is never a time to sound the alarm, but you definitely seem to be implying if the congregation doesn't line up with the pastor, it's likely due to him being a coward.

Wait my apologies for not reading this thread but are you talking about new converts or saints in sin? Always an exception but if saints are in sin it needs to be done over the pulpit for a many different reasons. Specially if you are dealing with someone in rebellion. Sin is like Leprosy and will affect others real quick.

[hometown guy]

Originally Posted by derAlte

I have no doubt that this happens. Sin must be dealt with. But to simplistically assume that because a church hasn't achieved a state of absolute perfection doesn't mean the pastor isn't doing his job. It's a question of timing. Genuine God-called pastors actually love their people (what a concept!) and sincerely want them to be saved. They await the unction of the Holy Ghost as to the timing for dealing with things. They know that it is not God's will that any perish. Any uninformed, opinionated knot-head can get in a pulpit and destroy what it may have taken years for a pastor to build up. Jesus dealt with the sin of the woman at the well with gentleness and compassion at the perfect time. Jesus told of a tree that didn't bear fruit. Like many of us, it was urged to just cut the silly thing down. But the heart of Jesus was expressed when he told of the husbandman who wanted more time to fertilize it. We need to allow pastors to follow the example of the Lord Jesus Christ and give them the space to deal with folks so they can be saved.

I agree but the problem is there are too many pastors out there that are not sensitive to the spirit and miss the timing of God and get so far out that they can’t ( won’t even try ) turn the ship around.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

Wait my apologies for not reading this thread but are you talking about new converts or saints in sin? Always an exception but if saints are in sin it needs to be done over the pulpit for a many different reasons. Specially if you are dealing with someone in rebellion. Sin is like Leprosy and will affect others real quick.

The following is where I got on a roll...

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

More like the Pastor dont have the guts to preach and enforce what he preaches.

watch dogs? pshhhh more like a dumb dog that cant bark.

Originally Posted by Ehud

So it's the pastor's fault if the entire congregation doesn't abide by the manual?

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

The scenario was the Pastor is conservative and the Church as a whole was not.

It has been me experience that if the Pastor would preach and enforce conservative values then the Church would obey, at least a majority.

I have taken "entire congregation" to mean a mixture of new and old. Perhaps that is why Apostolic1ness and I were talking past each other.

So again, I'm not saying there is never a time to sound the alarm and send it out from the pulpit. I'm saying that a congregation's position on the spectrum doesn't necessarily reflect that a pastor isn't doing his job. By extension, taking care of matters privately instead of from the pulpit doesn't mean he is forsaking his duty to stand against sin.

Why I am staunchly defending this hypothetical pastor, I have no idea. But it has struck a chord with me for some reason. Thank you, everyone, for the back and forth. And to Apostolic1ness, I again apologize for judging your comments harsher than you intended.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

I agree but the problem is there are too many pastors out there that are not sensitive to the spirit and miss the timing of God and get so far out that they can’t ( won’t even try ) turn the ship around.

I ask in sincerity, is this a common problem? I have had only two pastors in my life, and I have never thought this of either of them with regards to a stand against sin.

[hometown guy]

Originally Posted by Ehud

I ask in sincerity, is this a common problem? I have had only two pastors in my life, and I have never thought this of either of them with regards to a stand against sin.

Yes it is. They will preach against ungodliness in generic terms without naming sin so a lot of times saints think they preach hard against sin but in reality it’s not named. I know you can’t name everything but the best way to let a spirit get into the church is just simply stop preaching against it when it shows it’s ugly head. The problem with doing it privately is there is a good chance others are also struggling with it and it never gets dealt with since they never got “ caught “ in sin. Preaching is what will expose it and repentance is what will fix it. Yes God can convict them without it being preached but that’s the method God chose to save them that believe ( talking about saints not sinners).

[hometown guy]

I for one would rather have conviction preaching then shouting preaching. I love both. I’ve been in Pentecost all my life. Heard some great messages. Shouted with the best but the messages that have impacted my life are the ones where conviction got on me and put me on my face. Those are the messages that are memorials in my life. John the Baptist came preaching repentance telling them they were in sin. He didn’t do it in private. They wanted his head for it because some wanted to keep their “ religion “ and their sin.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

Yes it is. They will preach against ungodliness in generic terms without naming sin so a lot of times saints think they preach hard against sin but in reality it’s not named. I know you can’t name everything but the best way to let a spirit get into the church is just simply stop preaching against it when it shows it’s ugly head. The problem with doing it privately is there is a good chance others are also struggling with it and it never gets dealt with since they never got “ caught “ in sin. Preaching is what will expose it and repentance is what will fix it. Yes God can convict them without it being preached but that’s the method God chose to save them that believe ( talking about saints not sinners).

Could you elaborate on the bolded portion?

[Antipas]

This might be an unpopular question. So, let me apologize up front if it rubs anyone the wrong what. That isn't the intention.

We've talked about pastors holding the line and preaching the line and the challenges they face. And they certainly do face significant challenges. Let's not ever assume that they don't.

But what about those pastors who sincerely are dealing with challenges going the opposite direction?

For example, what if a pastor has sincerely studied Scripture and sincerely feels that a given "standard" is more tradition and isn't biblical or necessary?

How would this pastor shed these traditions off the congregation while facing being called a compromiser by some in the congregation or being slandered throughout his district as "going charismatic"?

What about the heart and soul of the "moderate pastor" (if that's a good description) who is being called to a more strictly "biblical" approach?