UPC, ALJC, PAW, etc.

[n david]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

Did I ever say they should? I teach against men wearing facial hair but I don’t teach against Sunday school department putting up mosses with a beard. You just don’t want to admit what you wear affiliates you with something and you just want to take it to the extreme Trying to make light of what we stand for. Everyone knows in our church the Bible does not say “ tho shall not have a beard “ but they understand is a “ standard “ of the church. If people want to get in rebellion over facial hair then obviously there is much deeper issues.

I believe if a person desires to be a member of a church, they should accept and practice the teachings of that church. If a Pastor preaches against beards and the man wants to grow a beard, then he should either submit to the personal preference of the Pastor or find another church.

I was attending a UPC church who's Pastor told me he had no scripture against beards, but wouldn't allow a man with a beard to be used on the platform. I didn't argue, I didn't rebel. I simply went to another church which doesn't have the same outdated preference.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

I can only speak for me but when I came into the Church out of the world I received the real Holy Ghost and my life that I once lived in the flesh I no longer lived it. I didnt care what I had to do, not do, change, whatever. I just knew I was dead in sin one day and the next I was given mercy and was now alive in Christ. I didnt know that beard shaving was not in the scripture and I didnt care, i didnt know many things but what I did know was I was changed and I found something real and worth keeping.

Those that come and go and never receive the Holy Ghost and those that say they received God but never die to the flesh I dont think we owe them one apology for what we live and believe. A new convert, yes lets teach and love and cherish. But those that just cant live for God based on our dress code and standards sorry but they didnt die like I did when I repented neither did they receive what I received when I got the Holy Ghost.

We believe what we believe because we feel like it is well pleasing to God and is the safest stance for our local assembly. People can talk and criticize if they want to, but let something go wrong in their life or let them need God to do a miracle in their life, who do they always come back to? The Apostolic Church, that Holiness church that every makes fun of and they left because we believe in long hair and clean shaven faces. I have seen it too many times they know where to go to Find the power of God that they so desperately need.

We owe no apologies.

A lot of what you wrote resonates with me. I was very much the same way. I was born again of water and spirit. I spoke in tongues when I was water baptized. It was the most powerful experience of my life. I felt brand new and was now so alive in Christ. I too was willing to do anything without question or argument. Giving up beards, jewelry, shorts, short sleeves, television, secular music, Dungeons & Dragons, beer, etc., etc., was fine with me. I'd do anything to please my Jesus.

I think a lot of people are like this.

But when they mature and begin studying the Scripture, and don't find that it says what the pastor is teaching, it can cause more harm than good.

When a pastor dangles people over Hell for something like a beard or short sleeves... and no one can find it being such an abomination in Scripture... it undermines everything taught from that pulpit.

It's all pretty simple.

If we say that simply growing and wearing a beard will send someone to Hell, is it true? Is that actually in Scripture? If it isn't true... it isn't true. No amount of "feels" or sentimental nostalgia for the "good ol' days" can make it true. And if a soul ends up falling away after studying the Bible... because we've told them something that isn't true... we do owe an apology... to Jesus

[hometown guy]

Originally Posted by n david

I believe if a person desires to be a member of a church, they should accept and practice the teachings of that church. If a Pastor preaches against beards and the man wants to grow a beard, then he should either submit to the personal preference of the Pastor or find another church.

I was attending a UPC church who's Pastor told me he had no scripture against beards, but wouldn't allow a man with a beard to be used on the platform. I didn't argue, I didn't rebel. I simply went to another church which doesn't have the same outdated preference.

Lol you were doing well and I was at least respecting what you were saying until you had to throw in “ outdated “. But that’s fine I understand people pick church like they pick their food at a buffet.

[hometown guy]

Originally Posted by Antipas

A lot of what you wrote resonates with me. I was very much the same way. I was born again of water and spirit. I spoke in tongues when I was water baptized. It was the most powerful experience of my life. I felt brand new and was now so alive in Christ. I too was willing to do anything without question or argument. Giving up beards, jewelry, shorts, short sleeves, television, secular music, Dungeons & Dragons, beer, etc., etc., was fine with me. I'd do anything to please my Jesus.

I think a lot of people are like this.

But when they mature and begin studying the Scripture, and don't find that it says what the pastor is teaching, it can cause more harm than good.

When a pastor dangles people over Hell for something like a beard or short sleeves... and no one can find it being such an abomination in Scripture... it undermines everything taught from that pulpit.

It's all pretty simple.

If we say that simply growing and wearing a beard will send someone to Hell, is it true? Is that actually in Scripture? If it isn't true... it isn't true. No amount of "feels" or sentimental nostalgia for the "good ol' days" can make it true. And if a soul ends up falling away after studying the Bible... because we've told them something that isn't true... we do owe an apology... to Jesus

Yet you probably have never sat under a pastor that has said beards will send you to hell...you all want to say we say that but I have been around conservatives or as you all would call us “ ultra cons “ for the last 15 years and have not heard that once.

[n david]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

Lol you were doing well and I was at least respecting what you were saying until you had to throw in “ outdated “. But that’s fine I understand people pick church like they pick their food at a buffet.

1) It is outdated. Most Pastors point to the hippy movement from over 50 years ago.

2) There are salvific beliefs which shouldn't be compromised, and then there is the beard prohibition. If I want to be involved in ministry of a church and I want to grow a beard, I will choose a church where I can do both. As long as the important, salvific beliefs are not compromised. That is not a sin nor is it wrong.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

Did I ever say they should? I teach against men wearing facial hair but I don’t teach against Sunday school department putting up mosses with a beard.

Bearded mosses?

You just don’t want to admit what you wear affiliates you with something and you just want to take it to the extreme

But that's all eye of the beholder. Let's pick the beard, it's easy to play with. In today's world, it might make someone with darker skin look Muslim. Not Hippy. A heavier white guy with a beard and a Bible in hand might look more like Charles Spurgeon to some. Notice... your mind is shifting from Scripture to your own opinion as you're typing. And you're crystalizing that opinion and projecting it, insisting that it's just that obvious. But the truth is... it isn't. That's why these conversations never cease. Of course it's easier to just accuse everyone bringing this up as being "rebellious" because it doesn't require any serious thinking, repentance, or soul searching. But if something isn't in Scripture... it's not in Scripture. No matter how beloved the tradition is. And... don't we see how Jesus faced the very same spirit of tradition in the religious authorities of His day? This is like condemning someone over unwashed hands.

Trying to make light of what we stand for.

It depends on what we stand for. Do we stand for a faith grounded solidly on the Word of God? Or do we stand for a faith that is based primarily on sentimental traditions and outdated stereotypes?

If a pastor said, "I have a no beard policy on the platform. It just reminds me of those dirty hippies." He's got a right to do that. But to teach that a beard will send one to Hell... now that's a clear and obvious error. Even if the tradition is to teach such error.

Everyone knows in our church the Bible does not say “ tho shall not have a beard “ but they understand is a “ standard “ of the church. If people want to get in rebellion over facial hair then obviously there is much deeper issues.

But what if that logic is flipped?

What if one were to say that there is nothing in Scripture condemning the wearing of a beard. Therefore, any church or pastor who wants to get mean spirited or condemnatory against those who have beards, merely to uphold their human tradition, obviously have much deeper issues than the facial hair?

The much deeper issues argument really can be used against anyone for anything. "If a guy wants to make a stink over x,y,z… he clearly has deeper issues." LOL

Maybe... maybe he just loves the Word of God and the truth more than old human traditions.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by n david

I believe if a person desires to be a member of a church, they should accept and practice the teachings of that church. If a Pastor preaches against beards and the man wants to grow a beard, then he should either submit to the personal preference of the Pastor or find another church.

I was attending a UPC church who's Pastor told me he had no scripture against beards, but wouldn't allow a man with a beard to be used on the platform. I didn't argue, I didn't rebel. I simply went to another church which doesn't have the same outdated preference.

I can agree with that.

For some it's more personal I think. They believed the pulpit and give tithes and offerings, trained their kids to believe it, structured their entire lives around the church, only to eventually learn how to study the Word for themselves and discovered... there's no Bible for a great deal of what's going on.

That can hurt. It can leave one feeling betrayed by those they trusted with their very soul. It can also make one cause a ruckus.

Maybe we should do what the Catholics did. If we take the Bible away from the common saint in the pew and only let certain folk preach and teach it in accordance to sacred tradition, maybe all this "that's not in the Bible" stuff will just go away.

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

Yet you probably have never sat under a pastor that has said beards will send you to hell...you all want to say we say that but I have been around conservatives or as you all would call us “ ultra cons “ for the last 15 years and have not heard that once.

Oh, I've sat under a pastor who taught that wearing a beard would send you to Hell.

But, I don't think the beard issue is all that big anymore based on what I'm seeing. Pastors have become more moderate about facial hair than they were 30 years ago.

Maybe that standard needs jumpstarted. Let's start saying it makes people think we look Muslim. LOL

[Antipas]

Originally Posted by n david

1) It is outdated. Most Pastors point to the hippy movement from over 50 years ago.

2) There are salvific beliefs which shouldn't be compromised, and then there is the beard prohibition. If I want to be involved in ministry of a church and I want to grow a beard, I will choose a church where I can do both. As long as the important, salvific beliefs are not compromised. That is not a sin nor is it wrong.

Hippies?... forget those Hippies.

Why do you want to wear a beard and look like one of them there, Muslims? It's a spirit. When people see you, they'll associate you with being Muslim. Muslims are in rebellion against God, and are enemies of truth. And when that spirit gets ahold of you, you and your whole family will end up in a training camp somewhere in Arabiastan. And if you don't think it's so... you're in rebellion and have deeper issues than facial hair.

If you wear a beard, the terrorists win!

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

Yet you probably have never sat under a pastor that has said beards will send you to hell...you all want to say we say that but I have been around conservatives or as you all would call us “ ultra cons “ for the last 15 years and have not heard that once.

If I moved to your area, began attending your church, but didn’t conform to the clean shaven standard that is presented by the pastor, would you consider me to be in rebellion? If the answer is yes, what are my options? If I refuse to obey an extra-biblical mandate, i’m in rebellion. If I try to move to the next church, i’m accused of picking my church like food at a buffet.