UPC, ALJC, PAW, etc.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

It's not that they don't want a pastor, because we first need to define "they?"
No one issue is the same, and pretty much their reasons vary. Don't get me wrong there are troublemakers, and lone wolves looking to prey on the young, weak, and sick. But others have different issues. Therefore it takes time for someone to work with them as long as they are willing to do some work themselves.

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Ehud

All of that is fine and dandy, but this started with "a conservative pastor with a not-so-conservative congregation" being too cowardly to stand for the truth. He was a dumb dog that couldn't bark. Now why would those of us in the more moderate places listen to you folks when you hold us in such contempt? At best we seem to be compromisers.

So let me ask it as plainly as possible: should those of us in other areas be following our pastors even if they don't teach/enforce the same standards as yours? Are we your brothers or are we compromisers?

I may disagree with your pastor, but I have no reason to doubt he is doing what he thinks is best, and I would certainly consider both of you brothers.

We have all been speaking about what we think and believe about a theoretical scenario. Im not so sure its a good idea to bring this down to a personal level concerning the posters on this forum. There is enough mud slinging already on some threads. This one has been thought provoking and fun lets not end it with us personally turned against each other.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

We have all been speaking about what we think and believe about a theoretical scenario. Im not so sure its a good idea to bring this down to a personal level concerning the posters on this forum. There is enough mud slinging already on some threads. This one has been thought provoking and fun lets not end it with us personally turned against each other.

Fair enough.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

We have all been speaking about what we think and believe about a theoretical scenario. Im not so sure its a good idea to bring this down to a personal level concerning the posters on this forum. There is enough mud slinging already on some threads. This one has been thought provoking and fun lets not end it with us personally turned against each other.

In that vein, how is it that you folks handle a new convert? I'm sure you start with the gospel, but is the convert left to "observe and follow" or do you have separate classes where discipleship is taught?

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If not, if book chapter and verse butts heads with personal wants wishes and issues, and book chapter and verse don't prevail? That person or congregation has much bigger issues and needs to get saved all over again. Because either Jesus, the Incarnate Word, is Lord of ALL, or not at all.

Good morning, Bro. Esaias!

How much book, chapter, and verse are needed to justify a stance? Keeping with the theme of the thread, a pastor is unlikely to point to a verse prohibiting beards, but rather will incorporate his personal experiences and put disobedience under the canopy of 'rebellion'. In your view, is such a connecting of dots sufficient? I don't doubt the sincerity of the pastor, but can't help feel the application might be limited as opposed to universal, i.e. it might be appropriate for his location, but not necessarily every location.

Thank you as always for your time!

[hometown guy]

Originally Posted by Ehud

In that vein, how is it that you folks handle a new convert? I'm sure you start with the gospel, but is the convert left to "observe and follow" or do you have separate classes where discipleship is taught?

We don’t have a separate class but have personal bible studies and usually just teach “ exploring God’s word “ or something similar.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

We don’t have a separate class but have personal bible studies and usually just teach “ exploring God’s word “ or something similar.

Awesome. Does the pastor lead the studies or are there elders that shoulder some of the load?

[Apostolic1ness]

Originally Posted by Ehud

Good morning, Bro. Esaias!

How much book, chapter, and verse are needed to justify a stance? Keeping with the theme of the thread, a pastor is unlikely to point to a verse prohibiting beards, but rather will incorporate his personal experiences and put disobedience under the canopy of 'rebellion'. In your view, is such a connecting of dots sufficient? I don't doubt the sincerity of the pastor, but can't help feel the application might be limited as opposed to universal, i.e. it might be appropriate for his location, but not necessarily every location.

Thank you as always for your time!

I think there is another aspect of church standards that comes into play and that is "the fellowship". The other churches and Pastors that hold to similar standards usually pull their churches from fellowshipping those that let down on certain issues, (some for good reason). So in a way there is the desire to have approval of those that you typically fellowship, for the sake of friendships and accountability.

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

Sounds pretty interesting that first coming to church you had so much knowledge that what was being taught had no scriptural foundation.

I didn't say or intend to imply that. I said, "When I first heard them taught." In other words, I noted the amount of scriptures used to support the standards when I heard the pastor teaching or friends explaining why they did or didn't do some things. Some things, for example, no pants on women, were so obviously different from the general culture that, I guess, I was expecting there to be many passages on which such a distinctive teaching would be based, so I was surprised when basically it came down to an interpretation of a single verse, Deut 22.5. I remember talking to the girl who had won me to the Lord about that passage and saying, not in a mocking or hostile way, that I guess I would have just read that as condemning cross-dressing and was surprised that there were not other passages that required really distinctive dress for each sex. I was thrilled with my experience in the church and was just trying to understand what the Bible required.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

You say outdated, but to whom is it outdated? Surely not to the pastors and saints that came out of the 60s that identified their own beards with rebellion. How is that outdated?

It's outdated as in this was over 50 years ago, almost 60 years ago and yet a lot of Pastors are still pointing to "beards = hippy movement" for the reason they prohibit beards.

Good thing those rebellious hippies didn't wear jeans . . . oh wait.

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

So here comes beards, skinny jeans, cap sleeves, mini skirts, diamond rings etc.where do you draw the line? Some of those things are not found in scriptures.

Skinny jeans, cap sleeves and mini skirts are found in scripture. It's called modesty. Modesty is actually mentioned in the Bible.

Originally Posted by hometown guy

Marlboro reds, tank tops, Mohawks ect...

Originally Posted by hometown guy

Bottom line is they don’t want a pastor. They want the benefits of a Christian and still have there carnal life style

Oh good grief. You're nuts.

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

I dont get it. Some would leave a church and go find the one that.fits their fantsy so they can have a beard. No matter the relationship between the church and the family or the pastor. No loyalty, no pastoral authority, no submission.

smh

First, the Pastor of the church I left and I are on good speaking terms. He's a good friend of my family. It's funny that I'm being blasted by those who don't know anything about me, yet the Pastor affected holds no ill feelings against me. I still speak to several other friends from the church as well.

This is incredible, and all too predictable coming from cons. Cons will claim that they neither preach nor hear "beards will send you to hell," yet in the same breath, if you choose to attend a church which doesn't include this prohibition which is man-made and a personal preference NOT based in scripture, NOT based on anything but "hippies are bad" -- suddenly you become someone who's not in God's will, who's picking churches like they pick food from a buffet and worse -- rebellious.

Bottom line for men who grow facial hair: you haven't really repented; you don't really have the HG; you're in rebellion; your facial hair is a slippery slope which will lead you to wear skinny jeans, mohawks, diamond studded earrings, pinkie rings, smoking cigarettes and THAT will lead to all kinds of drugs and other sins. In a nutshell: you're going to hell.

So be honest and just say what you believe: men with facial hair are going to hell.