Should we teach others to rebel against standards?

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by n david

Are you saying the problem isn't with the Pastor or others in the congregation???

I think I am.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

Pretty easy to shave so what the big deal. I know churches that don’t do watches at all. I do simple watches. If I had to not have a watch to do what God wants me to do I would not think twice about it temporarily or permanently the watch would be gone.

The question asked was why is it "good" to take a position that is contrary to the Word's position?

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

If God speaks to you as he speaks to your Pastor, then why have a Pastor? If there is no difference between (if I can use this expression) the pulpit and the pew, then the pew can do as they feel God lead them. Why have a Pastor preach to them. What??? The word of God. I’m not saying this to you personally, we can not have the mindset of the man up there, we have to remember this is the office God put in order. I remember O.R. Fauss in one of his messages say, he could easily leave the platform and go into a office and preach from there and there will be no one fro the church to see. I understand what he was saying, its not the man, its the office.

Maybe, because of their role in the assembly. Pastors are the roles of "elders" (Jewish term)/ "overseer" (Hellenistic term). They are there to rule and teach, but the differentiating factor is "rule" (keeping doctrine purity, designating who can teach, kicking people out, etc...). There can be more teachers in the assembly that are not elders.
We need them because an assembly needs a team of men with great wisdom and judgment. But they are not "the prophet" or "the mediator" or "the Moses" of the assembly. As a teacher, with a heart of a teacher, they should also look for the spiritual development of the saints, and their ministries.
The role of "elder" can be better understood if you study the structure of synagogues in the first century, which is different than modern synagogues.

1 Corinthians 11:1
Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

Would you agree if your Pastor said this? There is a difference between the office of the Pastor (or ministry) and the saints. Can a saint talk to God a
Absolutely! Yet, I believe God talks to the ministry different than he does saints.

See the context, Paul is not saying that as a general statement, but as an example of a specific behaviour. I may present myself an example of specific behaviours, but yet I would point people to Christ as the ultimate model to follow, not me. You do not make disciples of yourself, but of Christ.

Isaiah 21:11
The burden of Dumah. He calleth to me out of Seir, Watchman, what of the night? Watchman, what of the night?

If a person doesn’t believe their Pastor watches for there soul, this scripture means nothing to them. However, your Pastor is charged to watch for your soul. He sees further than the saint can see.

As elders, yes, they may discern regarding modern situations and then teach them as dangerous for your life.

However, many times, when the old testament uses the term "watchman" in prophecy is referring to the prophet. No the elders are not "the prophets" of the congregation. Elder is a structural office in the assembly. Prophet is a ministry, that could be from an elder, or not.

If people do not put pastors where they belong, you will end up with bad results: cult-like behaviours, idolatry, backsliding because of unable to forgive offences and mistakes, etc...

You submit to the elders by listening to them, and obeying their advice, and ruling, as long as is not against the Bible, because that's what God wants me to do, and because I am not an idiot, I like, and want to, absorb wisdom from elders. But they are not my mediators to God or "the prophet" of the assembly, or "Moses". God guides me in different ways, by the preaching (from many people), the Word, prayer, and even the conversation with another saint.

[Esaias]

I think I just figured out why standards are such a huge issue. It isn't because of standards. Rather, it's really about authority.

[hometown guy]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The question asked was why is it "good" to take a position that is contrary to the Word's position?

It’s not contrary to God’s word.....

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by coksiw

Maybe, because of their role in the assembly. Pastors are the roles of "elders" (Jewish term)/ "overseer" (Hellenistic term). They are there to rule and teach, but the differentiating factor is "rule" (keeping doctrine purity, designating who can teach, kicking people out, etc...). There can be more teachers in the assembly that are not elders.
We need them because an assembly needs a team of men with great wisdom and judgment. But they are not "the prophet" or "the mediator" or "the Moses" of the assembly. As a teacher, with a heart of a teacher, they should also look for the spiritual development of the saints, and their ministries.
The role of "elder" can be better understood if you study the structure of synagogues in the first century, which is different than modern synagogues.



See the context, Paul is not saying that as a general statement, but as an example of a specific behaviour. I may present myself an example of specific behaviours, but yet I would point people to Christ as the ultimate model to follow, not me. You do not make disciples of yourself, but of Christ.



As elders, yes, they may discern regarding modern situations and then teach them as dangerous for your life.

However, many times, when the old testament uses the term "watchman" in prophecy is referring to the prophet. No the elders are not "the prophets" of the congregation. Elder is a structural office in the assembly. Prophet is a ministry, that could be from an elder, or not.

If people do not put pastors where they belong, you will end up with bad results: cult-like behaviours, idolatry, backsliding because of unable to forgive offences and mistakes, etc...

You submit to the elders by listening to them, and obeying their advice, and ruling, as long as is not against the Bible, because that's what God wants me to do, and because I am not an idiot, I like, and want to, absorb wisdom from elders. But they are not my mediators to God or "the prophet" of the assembly, or "Moses". God guides me in different ways, by the preaching (from many people), the Word, prayer, and even the conversation with another saint.

Hebrews 13:7
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.


Who is this talking about?

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Watch:
Ultimately from G1 (as negative particle) and G5258; to be sleepless that is keep awake: - watch.

I believe these verses are talking the Pastor, overseer of the flock, Angel of the church. He will be required to give an account for your soul. If your Pastor is one to just give wisdom, and or advice thats not a Pastor. I have friends that can do that!

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I think I just figured out why standards are such a huge issue. It isn't because of standards. Rather, it's really about authority.

I disagree, I believe standards are there to protect.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Hebrews 13:7
Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.


Who is this talking about?

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Watch:
Ultimately from G1 (as negative particle) and G5258; to be sleepless that is keep awake: - watch.

I believe these verses are talking the Pastor, overseer of the flock, Angel of the church. He will be required to give an account for your soul. If your Pastor is one to just give wisdom, and or advice thats not a Pastor. I have friends that can do that!

I said several times that they are the rulers of the assembly as well. They are definitely not “the speakers of God”, the mediators, the prophets, or the head of the assembly. God guides us thru multiple ministries and gifts, not just the Pastors.

[Rom 12:3 NKJV] For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith.
[Rom 12:4 NKJV] For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function,

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I said several times that they are the rulers of the assembly as well. They are definitely not “the speakers of God”, the mediators, the prophets. God guides us thru multiple ministries and gifts, not just the Pastors.

So, every ministry that comes through your local assembly is going to give an account for your soul?

Every calling is unique, its not to bring one down and set another up.
The pastor isn’t “the speakers of God”? Brother, what are they doing when they get up to that pulpit? If you don't believe your Pastor is a voice of God, it’s time you get up and go find someone who is. I hope you misspoke or mistyped with that.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

Pretty easy to shave so what the big deal. I know churches that don’t do watches at all. I do simple watches. If I had to not have a watch to do what God wants me to do I would not think twice about it temporarily or permanently the watch would be gone.

Works the same with a beard! If I had to not have one to do what Jesus wants me to do it would be gone! But if HE could do Gods will perfectly WITH a beard, and not one scripture in the holy Bible speaks unfavorably about having one why do Preachers make war on those who have them?