Should we teach others to rebel against standards?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Ehud

Am I correct in understanding you to be saying that those like Nicodemus -- by your admission non-Christians -- are the ones being referred to as those whose faith we should follow?

The short answer is yes. However, it is a little more complicated than that. Let’s post the verse again so we can examine it.

Hebrews 13

[7] Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Remember: This word indicates that the “them” is in the past. God is all about remembrance.

Luke.22

[19] And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

When we take the Lord’s supper, we are to do it in remembrance of Him. When Jesus said this, He was instructing the disciples to do this in remembrance, although the event (his crucifixion) had not yet taken place. So this event is to be (future tense) remembered (past tense) after it takes place.

So we are remembering someone who rules over the Jews. Who are we remembering? The ones who have spoken unto you the word of God. You could also say the oracles of God. The meaning is the same. Oracle, orator, oratory. All forms of the spoken word. Oracles of God? Specifically the spoken words of God which were recorded in written form by the prophets.

Rom.3

[1] What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
[2] Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

So who was responsible for delivering the spoken words of God to the Hebrews? And was to be remembered? And whose faith they were to follow? The prophets unto whom were committed the oracles of God.

Moses is a big one. But there is a “cloud of witnesses” listed in Hebrews 11. I’ll list a small sample.

[17] By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
[18] Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
[19] Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
[20] By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
[21] By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
[22] By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
[23] By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
[24] By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

It is important to realize that the major theme of Hebrews is the superiority of the new covenant versus the old. So it should be understood that following their faith, is not the same as following their doctrine or covenant. It is also important to realize that the Hebrews had an additional layer of rulers that the Gentiles didn’t have. They were permitted by the Romans to retain their government to some extent. Part of the government was the Sanhedrin Court. And the Sanhedrin had rulers that were specific to it. The synagogues had rulers over them as well.

Luke.8

[41] And, behold, there came a man named Jairus, and he was a ruler of the synagogue: and he fell down at Jesus' feet, and besought him that he would come into his house:

Once again Jairus was not referred to as a pastor. He was a ruler of the synagogue. Where the word of God (Old Testament) was read and expounded upon.

These rulers might be included in their ones to be remembered. My point is that we have a multitude of passages of scripture that refer to who was recognized to be rulers of the Jews. Pastors are not ever referred to in this language, to my knowledge.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

The short answer is yes. However, it is a little more complicated than that. Let’s post the verse again so we can examine it.

Hebrews 13

[7] Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Remember: This word indicates that the “them” is in the past. God is all about remembrance.

Luke.22

[19] And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

When we take the Lord’s supper, we are to do it in remembrance of Him. When Jesus said this, He was instructing the disciples to do this in remembrance, although the event (his crucifixion) had not yet taken place. So this event is to be (future tense) remembered (past tense) after it takes place.

So we are remembering someone who rules over the Jews. Who are we remembering? The ones who have spoken unto you the word of God. You could also say the oracles of God. The meaning is the same. Oracle, orator, oratory. All forms of the spoken word. Oracles of God? Specifically the spoken words of God which were recorded in written form by the prophets.

Rom.3

[1] What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
[2] Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

So who was responsible for delivering the spoken words of God to the Hebrews? And was to be remembered? And whose faith they were to follow? The prophets unto whom were committed the oracles of God.

Moses is a big one. But there is a “cloud of witnesses” listed in Hebrews 11. I’ll list a small sample.

[17] By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
[18] Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
[19] Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.
[20] By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.
[21] By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff.
[22] By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
[23] By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.
[24] By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

It is important to realize that the major theme of Hebrews is the superiority of the new covenant versus the old. So it should be understood that following their faith, is not the same as following their doctrine or covenant. It is also important to realize that the Hebrews had an additional layer of rulers that the Gentiles didn’t have. They were permitted by the Romans to retain their government to some extent. Part of the government was the Sanhedrin Court. And the Sanhedrin had rulers that were specific to it. The synagogues had rulers over them as well.

Luke.8

[41] And, behold, there came a man named Jairus, and he was a ruler of the synagogue: and he fell down at Jesus' feet, and besought him that he would come into his house:

Once again Jairus was not referred to as a pastor. He was a ruler of the synagogue. Where the word of God (Old Testament) was read and expounded upon.

These rulers might be included in their ones to be remembered. My point is that we have a multitude of passages of scripture that refer to who was recognized to be rulers of the Jews. Pastors are not ever referred to in this language, to my knowledge.

Would a ruler of the synagogue be considered a Pastor in todays realm?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

With that in mind, where would you put us today? The Bible wasn’t written to us, yet it was written for us.

I would remember the heroes of the faith. Their faith is an example for us to follow. Their faith is, in many ways more powerful than ours can be, because they lived and died without obtaining the promise.

[37] They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
[38] (Of whom the world was not worthy) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
[39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
[40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

We have obtained the “better thing” that they lived and died without.

[Nicodemus1968]

Ephesians 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Strong's Definition
Of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively): - shepherd pastor.

Thayer's Definition
a herdsman, esp. a shepherd
in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow

metaph.
the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church
of the overseers of the Christian assemblies
of kings and princes
A shepherd in the Near East was responsible for watching out for enemies trying to attack the sheep, defending the sheep from attackers, healing the wounded and sick sheep, finding and saving lost or trapped sheep, loving them, and sharing their lives and to earn their trust.

As the Old Covenant was vanishing away, Jesus came to fulfill what the law lacked. When you read about the duties of what the rulers were responsible for you’ll see comparisons to what we know as the 5 fold ministry. I don’t know any that are rulers of synagogues, I know the ministry of Ephesians 4:11. We take the word and apply it to our life. I don't know the prophets of old, we can honor them by obeying the word, Ill agree with that.Yet, Why would John in Revelation refer to the Pastor as the “Angel of the Church?” And each letter is very personal, if the Pastor isn’t one to give an account, then why would he not refer to the prophets for the way the church's are? Why address the Pastor, because like you said pastors aren’t in charge of souls, The way you write almost seems we don't need Pastors, we can do what is right in our own eyes and be fine.

Yet, Ill say you need a Pastor in your life. You need the entire ministry without it, you’ll not be saved. We can be so educated to were we become so conceded in our mind. The Bible wasn't written to us, it was written for us. If you believe your Pastor is in error, then pray for him.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I would remember the heroes of the faith. Their faith is an example for us to follow. Their faith is, in many ways more powerful than ours can be, because they lived and died without obtaining the promise.

[37] They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
[38] (Of whom the world was not worthy) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
[39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
[40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

We have obtained the “better thing” that they lived and died without.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

The short answer is yes. However, it is a little more complicated than that. Let’s post the verse again so we can examine it.

...

Thank you for the reply

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Would a ruler of the synagogue be considered a Pastor in todays realm?

Originally Posted by Ehud

Thank you for the reply

You’re welcome. Brother Nic I need some time, but I will answer.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Would a ruler of the synagogue be considered a Pastor in todays realm?

No

[Evang.Benincasa]

Hebrews 13:17
Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they watch over your souls as those who must give an account. To this end, allow them to lead with joy and not with grief, for that would be of no advantage to you.


Isaiah 62:6
On your walls, O Jerusalem, I have posted watchmen; they will never be silent day or night. You who call on the LORD shall take no rest for yourselves,

Ezekiel 3:17
"Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel. Whenever you hear a word from My mouth, give them a warning from Me.

Acts 20:28
Keep watch over yourselves and the entire flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which He purchased with His own blood.

1 Corinthians 16:16
to submit to such as these, and to every fellow worker and laborer.

1 Thessalonians 5:12
But we ask you, brothers, to acknowledge those who work diligently among you, who preside over you in the Lord and give you instruction.

Hebrews 13:7
Remember your leaders who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.

Hebrews 13:24
Greet all your leaders and all the saints. Those from Italy send you greetings.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by hometown guy

Most on this forum just want their pastor to be a puppet of what they think.

Most Christendom just want to do as they very well please. No accountability, ESPECIALLY from Jesus Christ. Because after all He is invisible. Therefore since He isn't right there eye to eye with some of these toads, they continue to believe in a Jesus who hates everyone they hate. Who curses anyone they curse, who loves only the ones they love. Who agrees with them on every facet of their religious psychotic lives. But a physical eldership of ministers who will give you their unbiased point of view about behavior and life performance is VERBOTEN! They want smooth words, sweet love messages that make them feel good about being an ecclesiastical serial killer. Oh, they know the verses of their teachings, they can shuck the corn, and bale the hay with the best Judas/Absalom out there. They always know how to do it better than the elders of the church family. They can teach it better, they can preach it better, they can do everything just a wee bit better than guys who have been lifting the weight for literally years. But alas, David said that he almost slipped when he saw their prosperity, but he got it together when he relied their end. There has always been those who cut themselves off from any ministerial checks and balances. The Internet just made it more accessible for the wolves to join the pajama party, and teach everyone how they are all elders, bishops, apostles, evangelists, prophets, teachers, pastors, rabbis, gurus, shamans, warlocks and whatever other label they want to place on each other. 2 Timothy 3:6, Titus 1:11, Titus 3:3, and Jude 1:4.