Chris Reed

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Was it not previously argued that operation of gifts is independent of moral character or doctrinal orthodoxy?

You have a point, agreed. I actually thought of that later after I wrote it. And you confirmed it.

I guess I should adjust my point to mean that people without compassion will make a mess in the kingdom should they operate the gifts, as the Corinthians obviously were. Nevertheless, compassionless Christianity would also see lack of even care to use them. I've seen much of that, to the extent that the wines who focus more on condemnation NEVER have them in operation, and mock those who do saying it is not of God. Like the oneness condemned who thinks a trinitarian does not get the REAL Holy Ghost.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Altho I would generally speaking agree that gifts flow from love we must be very careful here. Was Jesus judgmental when he called the Pharisees two fold children of Hell? When he called Herod an old fox?

I never said that we cannot be firm and angry with a cause, and compassion does not mean wishy washy. That should be a given. Does compassion necessarily mean being wishy washy? No. Also not sure why you think about the need to not be condemning with the woman at the well with Jesus harshly addressing Pharisees. Are you implying that we CAN be condemning someone like the woman at the well for God showing us she was an adulteress. Jesus was actually kind to an adulteress, though firm in telling her to sin no more. It's the religious people he was angry with for being hypocrites. In fact the one time he used a gift negatively was to curse a fig tree that represented the hypocrisy of the religious people.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

And yet, no real-time, living account in Acts of Mark 16:17 being fulfilled in the lives of all believers. So, again, who is Jesus talking to? Every believer for all time everywhere? Or to His apostles?

As regards 1 Corinthians 1:5-7, you might read "so that ye come behind in no gift" as a statement of purpose, not a statement of reality. Clearly, we know Corinth was a mess in need of severe rebuke and censure.

Later in chapter 4, Paul tells them when he comes, he is going to investigate their power, not their speech or knowledge, because knowledge puffs up and the Kingdom of God is not in word but in power. Clearly, Paul had major doubts about how much power and demonstration of the Holy Spirit was actually occurring in Corinth at that time.

Finally, as it relates to 1 Corinthians 12:11, there is no doubt there, that God gives the gifts according to His own will, and after a description of these gifts and teaching about what it means to be the Body of Christ, and explaining that God placed apostles, then prophets, then teachers, and etc. into that Body, the first thing Paul rhetorically asks them is "Are all apostles? Are all prophets?" (1 Corinthians 12:28-29). So, when it comes to the gifts of the Spirit, is it not possible Paul is keeping within his own established elsewhere context of signs and wonders and divers miracles chiefly pertaining to the ministry of Apostles?

Paul was teaching the entire congregation at Corinth about the gifts and it appears by the way he spoke in chapter 14 in correction that everyone was involved in the disarray, not just the pastor and elders. And not once does Paul say the average believer should not be operating in them at all after making the indication that they were. Was the congregation entirely made up of apostles? Or did Paul say you who are not apostles should not be doing these things? No. He said they were doing fine when it came to the gifts in and of themselves. They were of God. But he said they were not using compassion and seemingly used them due to wanting to be seen. This was a letter to the church, not the leaders. The note about all being apostles etc, is not to say only apostles should be operating, but to say the ministries are gifts as much as the nine noted in chapter 12, and not everyone is an apostle any more than everyone operates the gift of miracles.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I believe that today, we don't expect everyone to be healed. The Catholic Church is very big on suffering for Christ's sake.

As a matter of fact, many who have posted on this forum including the previous forum don't teach or believe that everyone will be or should be filled with the Holy Spirit/Ghost as the Apostles were. That is false doctrine and it is unbelief. It is also interesting, in that, every single person who holds that belief speaks in tongues or has spoken in tongues. Crazy, IMO.

How does God work in that environment? He finds those who hunger and thirst for righteousness.

I have prayed for myself and have been healed, many times. I have had others pray for me and been healed. I believe in healing. But, I can't make others believe or have any level of faith. It is up to the individual.

Only knowing my experiences, I cannot answer for every person. That is God's business. Otherwise we end up as Job - vascillating between faith and doubt or like his three friends - narcissists thinking we have all the answers.

Thank you, sister.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I believe that today, we don't expect everyone to be healed. The Catholic Church is very big on suffering for Christ's sake.

As a matter of fact, many who have posted on this forum including the previous forum don't teach or believe that everyone will be or should be filled with the Holy Spirit/Ghost as the Apostles were. That is false doctrine and it is unbelief. It is also interesting, in that, every single person who holds that belief speaks in tongues or has spoken in tongues. Crazy, IMO.

How does God work in that environment? He finds those who hunger and thirst for righteousness.

I have prayed for myself and have been healed, many times. I have had others pray for me and been healed. I believe in healing. But, I can't make others believe or have any level of faith. It is up to the individual.

Only knowing my experiences, I cannot answer for every person. That is God's business. Otherwise we end up as Job - vascillating between faith and doubt or like his three friends - narcissists thinking we have all the answers.

I’m going to agree with you. This is my personal belief right now, if others don’t believe it, your more than welcome to your own set of faith.

Actually, n-David and myself talked about this a couple months ago or so. And we talked about why those that come for prayer do not get the healing they need. I said what I have been told and that is they must’ve not of had faith! N-David said he believes that was a cop out, and that really stuck with for the past couple months. I just spend a couple days with my Elder who in my opinion is a pioneer of faith, he preached all over the world, he has seen many miracles, preached crusades with other great pioneers of the faith. And as I sat with him in a motel room and his body completely shutting down on him, kidneys wont function properly, heart operating at only 30%, he still has the strength to talk about how good God has been. I was there for a couple hours and as we talked about the goodness of God right before my eyes his whole presence changed, and from when I walked in the hotel room to when I left it was like night from day. He felt better, he was moving around, matter of fact he’s driving 1400 miles to teach his grandson a bible study. God is good!

I said that to say, that elder taught me something I will hold on to by the grace of God. We talked about healing, we talked about why so many today are not receiving their healing. And I told him what I believe and in his kind way he directed me to a more perfect way. He directed me in this way of faith,

James 5:14 KJVS
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
James 5:15 KJVS
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

First off, its the individual with the issue of sickness to call for the elder of the church. I read in a book by a pioneer of Pentecost said the faith you have to come up to the platform is faith enough to heal you!
After the individual asks for prayer its now up to the individual doing the prayer. I can anoint him, I can call on the name of the Lord, and if I don't have faith then that individual will not get there healing. It’s on the ministry or the individual being called on in prayer to have the faith that God can heal.

There are two reasons why where not getting the healing we have been promised.

1- There is no faith from the individual praying the prayer
2- The individual with the issue of sickness is being afflicted

James 5:13 KJVS
Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

If your sickness is an affliction from God, God is trying to get your attention. Then it doesn’t say call for the elders, it says let that person pray.

I will never be the same again. As part of the body its my responsibility to be available to the spirit. When the need is there we can respond through the Holy Ghost. It’s not ability its all about availability.

Don’t lose your desire to see the miracles of the Bible! Jesus said, “greater works” I understand he could’ve been talking about a soul receiving the Holy Ghost. Yet, as we come to God as a little child we need to still have that belief that as the church, as an individual with the power of the Holy Ghost we can be used in miracles. We cannot limit the spirit, we cannot limit years ago to today. We need to know as long as there is a need, God will use an individual, those of us that have the Holy Ghost, is the same spirit Paul had, its the same spirit Peter had, its the same spirit John had as they were boiling him in the pot. We have that! Through your prayer of faith you can speak peace into a situation, you can pray for the blinded eyes and they will open. We can speak to a demon and they will be casted out, we can see the dead raised to life.

[mfblume]

Great thoughts, all. I lean toward the need for MORE of these gifts in operation. We can intellectualize them away or say they're not for us today, or whatever. But God set them in the church and so long as there is a church they're there.... just like apostles, prophets, pastors, etc.

[Pressing-On]

Good post, Nicodemus!

I totally agree, Brother Blume!

[Esaias]

Maybe it isn't a matter of people using the gifts in various (inappropriate) ways, but rather God using people in various ways and then those people jumping to the wrong conclusions about their own importance (or lack thereof)?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

The types of people Esaias mentioned are lawless people, some of whom were in the Corinthian church at the time of Paul's writing, the church which it is believed literally "came behind in no gift". So, if I am understanding Esaias correctly, how is it that if you lack compassion, God can't use you because you're a legalist who condemns, but if you're a sinner of a different stripe but are generally speaking, compassionate, God can use you just fine?

One the one hand, we have the idea that the gifts are lacking because people are not measuring up to high standards. Then on the other hand we have the idea that the gifts are disconnected from and not dependent on any such moral, ethical, or doctrinal standards.

Which seems to me to be a bit of a paradox. If gifts are not dependent on orthodoxy or morality or spirituality (!), then there ought to be no lack at all of charismata in today's church world.

On the other hand, if there IS a connection - that "no man can do these works except he be sent by God" - then either a lot of "gifts" simply aren't or we need to seriously re-evaluate our entire understanding of the whole subject.

And I think sometimes we generally forget that the gifts are "operations/working of the Spirit" not operations or workings of the individual. God does what He wants when He wants how He wants using whomever He wants. If gifts are lacking it may just be due to the fact that at THAT time God doesn't want to do that. Perhaps to remind an assembly just how dependent they need to be on the PRESENT manifest presence of God.

Which reminds me - if the manifestation of the Spirit is literally the manifesting presence of Jehovah God, then it would seem incongruous for people not in line with the will of God in at least some fundamental, basic sense, to be running around "manifesting the gifts".

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Maybe it isn't a matter of people using the gifts in various (inappropriate) ways, but rather God using people in various ways and then those people jumping to the wrong conclusions about their own importance (or lack thereof)?

Gift operation certainly has no bearing on anyone's importance. But there is an importance in operating one gift above another in certain settings.

1 cor 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.