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08-21-2007, 10:23 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover
I would argue the intent of the force should be something less than deadly, realizing that he deserves death, as even do I... but more importantly, he needs a Saviour as even do/did I.
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More good words from Brother Steveio!
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"all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
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08-21-2007, 10:27 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover
See that none render evil for evil unto any man
Killing one (condemned to hell most likely) who is transgressing against you then is not evil - but to go and rape his wife in return would be the evil in reference here? Am I reading this right?
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This is talking about retribution. Pay back. Macho mas macho....gang banger shoots your neighborhood up...you go to the same...Man rapes you wife, you go hunt him down and kill him or beat him up.
Vengeance, retribution...
We are not talking either about someone that has "trasngressed against you"...like he stepped on your daisies and you blow his head off. We are talking about someone that is breaking into your house and you are home...or someone that is attacking your wife and or kids or an estranged husband is about to stomp on the head of his wife and cave it in and you have the chance to stop him by some physical means....does not necessarily have to be killing, but any sort of physical means. Just realize that sometimes death happens too.
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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08-21-2007, 10:27 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 41,046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
Self defense is preventative. Defending someone else is the act of preventing or stoping a violent action.
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You see this is where you have a real problem because now you become the attacker. I cannot see this as preventative but reactive, because you're not preventing but you're reacting. Law enforcement also is trying to prevent crime, but they do it as to stop it before they ever have to REACT. See what I mean?
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"all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
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08-21-2007, 10:30 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover
Sorry this line is very unclear to me. I think most would kill before, during or after the rape... I know this would be my inclination without the help of God...
BTW no one is saying you should not stop him from raping.
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That is beside the point. The question is not "what would you do". The question was what does it mean to render evil for evil or retribution or vengeance.
What if violence is your only way to stop someone from entering your house, your wife and kids are home (hypothetical)...and two guys are kicking the door in? Or you come home and a man has ripped the clothes off of you wife and is attempting to assault her....do you ask him to stop? Or do you resort to violence? What if he has a knife or a gun and you own a gun?
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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08-21-2007, 10:33 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: AZ
Posts: 16,746
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Quote:
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I would argue the intent of the force should be something less than deadly, realizing that he deserves death, as even do I... but more importantly, he needs a Saviour as even do/did I.
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And I would agree that the intent shouldn't be to kill, but to use as much force as needed to end the threat.
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08-21-2007, 10:33 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
You see this is where you have a real problem because now you become the attacker. I cannot see this as preventative but reactive, because you're not preventing but you're reacting. Law enforcement also is trying to prevent crime, but they do it as to stop it before they ever have to REACT. See what I mean?
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That is all going to defend on your defintion of "attacker" and "defender".
As I said before...I did not just say "prevent" but I also said stop. Law enforcement often end up stoping crimes in the proces of being committed. They often have to subdue individuals by violent force. And if they feel their life is threatened can use deadly force. I have seen many times a guy was driving towards a cop in his car and the officer felt his life was being threatened. He and the other cops open fire to kill so they can stop him from continuing being a threat
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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08-21-2007, 10:34 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWayne
And I would agree that the intent shouldn't be to kill, but to use as much force as needed to end the threat.
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Yep, but sometimes death is inevitable. Cops though often use deadly force with the intent.
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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08-21-2007, 10:38 PM
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Supercalifragilisticexpiali...
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 19,197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
That is beside the point. The question is not "what would you do". The question was what does it mean to render evil for evil or retribution or vengeance.
What if violence is your only way to stop someone from entering your house, your wife and kids are home (hypothetical)...and two guys are kicking the door in? Or you come home and a man has ripped the clothes off of you wife and is attempting to assault her....do you ask him to stop? Or do you resort to violence? What if he has a knife or a gun and you own a gun?
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Again... I would argue the intent of the force should be something less than deadly, realizing that he deserves death, as even do I... but more importantly, he needs a Saviour as even do/did I.
Should I kill him in such a struggle - I would repent and live with this knowledge.
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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08-21-2007, 10:43 PM
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Smiles everyone...Smiles!!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sparta, TN
Posts: 2,399
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover
Again... I would argue the intent of the force should be something less than deadly, realizing that he deserves death, as even do I... but more importantly, he needs a Saviour as even do/did I.
Should I kill him in such a struggle - I would repent and live with this knowledge.
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Stephen,
This is the biblical and balanced approach.
No matter how much it is said that it is not retribution, one cannot fulfill the commandment to "Love you enemies" and take hostile actions that take their life in the process.
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08-21-2007, 10:47 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover
Again... I would argue the intent of the force should be something less than deadly, realizing that he deserves death, as even do I... but more importantly, he needs a Saviour as even do/did I.
Should I kill him in such a struggle - I would repent and live with this knowledge.
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I think I already concured with that notion. As I said, death is inevitable sometimes and could still happen.
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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