Ancient Monarchians and Trinitarians

Originally Posted by BobDylan

I want to focus on this statement here.... Believer, from about the 5th century to about the 14th century, there was no "church" historically outside of the Roman Catholic church. From your perspective and arguments here, you seem to suggest that the only way to be avoid heresy and be saved during this period is to be a part of the Catholic Church! Is this what you are suggesting?

There IS historical evidence of numerous groups that were not roman catholic, who held "heretical teachings" (i.e. sebellianism etc.). Either you are saying that during this period of time, the Roman Catholic church is the only "church" who had the right doctrine and all these other groups were heretics, OR maybe some of these other groups WERE in fact teaching truth while the Catholic church was teaching heresy. Which do you believe? From 600 to 1300 AD, did the Roman Catholic church teach truth or heresy? Ok, what about the Greek Orthadox? Which chruch group from 600AD to 1300AD taught the truth?


Also, this is a response from an earlier post:

Let's start by saying this: the men, whose early writing many trinitarians appeal to, were given the boot as well. For instance, Hippolytus was rejected and led a schismatic movement against Biship Callistus or Rome. Tertullian became a Montanist and the church of his day excommunicated him, Origen was excommunicated by the bishop of Alexandria etc. etc. etc. Which one of the "highly esteemed" trinitarians are we to appeal to in support of what is ecclesiastical doctrine? Actually, if you do a thorough study of history, Sabellius, Noetus, and monarchians were very properous in many areas of the world throughout history. Monarchianism WAS the only church doctrine until around the late 2nd century...

This subject would be an enormous task to try to type in here. Here is a good link to read. Hopeful you can glean some understand about church history. I just don't have the time to spell it out in here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity

Originally Posted by Praxeas

But Tertullians argument "Against Praxeas" is later isn't it?

A.D. 213 if my memory serve me correctly.

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by Believer

I want to comment on the above statement. I have studied this subject and many scholars have studied and wrote extensively on this subject and very few if any agree with your assertion.

You're attempts to rewrite history is astounding to say the least. You only bring your opinion that Manarchianism was the only church doctrine until the late 2nd century. As my signature states, there is no one arguing for or against this until the late 2nd or early 3rd century.

Can you bring anything indicating a "trinity" until the late 2nd century? All the Jews were "monarchian" one God people. It is WELL substantiated in history, for 2000 years prior to Christ. Should we expect the Jewish believers to have changed their "monarchianism" simply because of Christ's advent? If so, then there would have been extensive early writing detailing why they are scrapping monarchianism for "trinitarianism"... but there is NONE until some "greek philosophers" came on the scene in the late 2nd century. I believe you quited someone who used the term trinity in 180 AD.... I guess that's the first time. Up to that time, for two thousand years, the Jews believed and taught ONE GOD... This is very well documented and substianted in writted history. I have rewritten nothing.

Originally Posted by Believer

Let me give you some more proof that the first century Christian held to the plurality within the Godhead. Lets discuss Hermas (A.D. 120)

Church Historian says of Hermas: But as the same apostle, in the salutations at the end of the Epsitle to the Romans, has made mention among others of Hermas, to whom the book called The Shepherd is ascribed. (Eusebius, History of the Church, 3.3)

The Shepherd, Hermas clearly contradicts the Oneness doctrine of the non-eternal Son.

“The Son of God is older than all His creation, so that He became the Father’s adviser in His creation. Therefore also He is Ancient.” (Hermas, The Shepherd, Ninth Similitude, 12, in ANF, vol 2)

Polycarp of Smyrna (A.D. 130-150) He claimed to have been a Christian for eighty six year.
And according to Irenaeus, a disciple of the Apostle John. Eusebius also made this claim.

“…wherefore also I praise Thee for all things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy Spirit, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen.” (Martyrdom of Polycarp, 14, in ANF, vol 1)

You are taking excerpts from people who are misrepresenting Hermas, Iraneaus, and Polycarp (all of whom were monarchian). Hermas details his theology and Christology. Again, I have the resources, but not at my immediate disposal, to bring other renderings from "Shepherd" that show's Hermas' monarchian theology.

The problem is that you are appealing to trinitarian biased "historians" for their interpretation of the early writings....

Let me ask you again, who was the "real church" from 500AD to about 1500 AD? Who determined that the "trinity" was the official doctrine of the "real church"? When, where, and by whom was this "decision" made?

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by Believer

This subject would be an enormous task to try to type in here. Here is a good link to read. Hopeful you can glean some understand about church history. I just don't have the time to spell it out in here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity

Just tell me your opinions....

Who was the "real church" between AD 500 and 1500? Who determined that the "trinity" was the official dogma of the "real church"? Where, when, and by whom was this decision made?

I have read trinitarian historians, and I have read oneness historians.... I believe the oneness histories more than the trinitarian takes on history. Simply because of the ecclesiastical "development" of "orthadox" dogma... I also know what the Bible says, and am convinced from the bible and pre church history, that God clearly revealed that HE is ONE....

[BobDylan]

Jewish continuity

Early Christianity retained many of the doctrines and practices of Judaism. They held the Jewish scriptures to be authoritative and sacred, employing mostly the Septuagint translation as the Old Testament, and added other texts as the New Testament canon developed. Christianity also continued other Judaic practices: liturgical worship, including the use of incense, an altar, a set of scriptural readings adapted from synagogue practice, use of sacred music in hymns and prayer, and a religious calendar, as well as other distinctive features such as an exclusively male priesthood, and ascetic practices (fasting etc.).

The early Christians in first century believed Jehovah to be the Only true God, the God of Israel, and considered Jesus to be the Messiah (Christ) prophesied in the Old Testament.

From : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity

[stmatthew]

This is an Apostolic forum. We do not allow the promotion of the trinitarian doctrine here in any shape or form. We will allow Believer to come back in 7 days, but we will not allow the promotion of this doctrine here.

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

This is an Apostolic forum. We do not allow the promotion of the trinitarian doctrine here in any shape or form. We will allow Believer to come back in 7 days, but we will not allow the promotion of this doctrine here.

So, does that mean he's banned? I guess so....

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by BobDylan

I want to focus on this statement here.... Believer, from about the 5th century to about the 14th century, there was no "church" historically outside of the Roman Catholic church. From your perspective and arguments here, you seem to suggest that the only way to be avoid heresy and be saved during this period is to be a part of the Catholic Church! Is this what you are suggesting?

There IS historical evidence of numerous groups that were not roman catholic, who held "heretical teachings" (i.e. sebellianism etc.). Either you are saying that during this period of time, the Roman Catholic church is the only "church" who had the right doctrine and all these other groups were heretics, OR maybe some of these other groups WERE in fact teaching truth while the Catholic church was teaching heresy. Which do you believe? From 600 to 1300 AD, did the Roman Catholic church teach truth or heresy? Ok, what about the Greek Orthadox? Which chruch group from 600AD to 1300AD taught the truth?


Also, this is a response from an earlier post:

Let's start by saying this: the men, whose early writing many trinitarians appeal to, were given the boot as well. For instance, Hippolytus was rejected and led a schismatic movement against Biship Callistus or Rome. Tertullian became a Montanist and the church of his day excommunicated him, Origen was excommunicated by the bishop of Alexandria etc. etc. etc. Which one of the "highly esteemed" trinitarians are we to appeal to in support of what is ecclesiastical doctrine? Actually, if you do a thorough study of history, Sabellius, Noetus, and monarchians were very properous in many areas of the world throughout history. Monarchianism WAS the only church doctrine until around the late 2nd century...

Excellent observations and question.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by BobDylan

Jewish continuity

Early Christianity retained many of the doctrines and practices of Judaism. They held the Jewish scriptures to be authoritative and sacred, employing mostly the Septuagint translation as the Old Testament, and added other texts as the New Testament canon developed. Christianity also continued other Judaic practices: liturgical worship, including the use of incense, an altar, a set of scriptural readings adapted from synagogue practice, use of sacred music in hymns and prayer, and a religious calendar, as well as other distinctive features such as an exclusively male priesthood, and ascetic practices (fasting etc.).

The early Christians in first century believed Jehovah to be the Only true God, the God of Israel, and considered Jesus to be the Messiah (Christ) prophesied in the Old Testament.

From : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity

Bob,

I've really enjoyed reading your conversation with Believer on early church history.

For Paul, a Hebrew of the Hebrews, the identity of the man, Jesus Christ, is a no-brainer. For Christ to be called God, He has to be the same God, now revealed in flesh and blood, who the Jews worshipped for thousands of years.

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Bob,

I've really enjoyed reading your conversation with Believer on early church history.

For Paul, a Hebrew of the Hebrews, the identity of the man, Jesus Christ, is a no-brainer. For Christ to be called God, He has to be the same God, now revealed in flesh and blood, who the Jews worshipped for thousands of years.

Thanks for the nice words Mizpeh. I just wish Beleiver wouldn't have been banned. If he would have attempted following my thought processes, I think he would have either soon found himself admittedly in a quagmire of false inclinations, or he would have incessantly resorted unquestioningly to biased ecclesiastical history to hold together his postion. Well, maybe in 7 days we can get back into the discussion. I wish St. Matthew would have understood. For instance, say we deal with the trinitarians one at a time.... as long as they don't assume an offensive posture we can keep them around. But when they start getting offensive and lashing out etc. then we can ban them.... for some of the trinitarians out there, the only way they are going to be in contact with "thinking" apostolics are on forums like this!