Is the Father the Son?

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Bump for Believer. thank you

what does this prove?

Originally Posted by mizpeh

What does this mean?

Jesus in his humanity prayed to God. Are you Nestorian Trinitarian?

Did Jesus pray to His Father or not?

Joh 17:1 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,

Mat 26:39 And He went a little beyond them, and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will."

Jesus, in the flesh, prayed to His Father.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Believer

what does this prove?

I asked you some questions regarding what you posted from CARM on what the word PERSON means in light of your saying we have our own definition. I am attempting to ASK you for clarification...I believe I did ask you some questions. So I am not sure why you are asking me what this proves. Can you please go through my post and consider my questions and quotes....Please answer them because I find it confusing what you posted on person in regards to will.

Thank you

Originally Posted by Praxeas

But the definition you gave was of person...if the persons are distinct persons, ie not the same persons, then using that definition it stands to reason there are three wills.

Strawman

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I asked you some questions regarding what you posted from CARM on what the word PERSON means in light of your saying we have our own definition. I am attempting to ASK you for clarification...I believe I did ask you some questions. So I am not sure why you are asking me what this proves. Can you please go through my post and consider my questions and quotes....Please answer them because I find it confusing what you posted on person in regards to will.

Thank you

The church in the West utilized per-sona (Lat.; from per (through) and sono (speak), and the churches in the East used the term hypostasis (Gk).
Inflected forms: pl. hy·pos·ta·ses (-sz)

1. Philosophy The substance, essence, or underlying reality. 2. Christianity a. Any of the persons of the Trinity. b. The essential person of Jesus in which his human and divine natures are united.

The word "Person" in the English was not the original word used. But, it best discribes the distinctions.


Good night all...I'm off to bed for an early rise!!!!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Believer

Come on prax, please don't start playing the victim. I'm not here to argue with you. Calm down.

How am I playing the victim? I don't feel like one. Im just trying to have a dialogue with you. If that upsets you then maybe you are just not cut out for this kind of discussion.

Not true, because we say that they are not the same "person." If I say the Father is God and the Son is God, doesn't mean they are the same "persons" within the Godhead. But you know that already.....

Right, thus YOUR explanation and I would allow you to do that. It would be nice if you reciprocated

Using my logic, the Son added humanity to Himself. It was the Son of God that was manifested, not the Father.

Using my theology I would say God or Yahweh added Humanity to Himself and came to exist as both Father (of the Son) and the Son. If one wants to argue the Father became the Son fine but that does not mean the Father is equal to the Son. The problem here is when someone says "is the Father the Son" are they asking "Is the Father the same person AS the Son" or are they asking "Is the Father EQUAL to the Son"

If the "person" the Father is the same "person" of the Son, then they are the same "person" which would make the Father the Son. it won't work. No matter how you put it, you have two "persons."

No it would make the person of the Father the same person as the Son, but that does NOT mean there are no distinctions between Father and Son.

I said it already, Father and Son are the same in PERSON but DIFFERENT ontologically due to the Human nature of the Son.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Believer

The church in the West utilized per-sona (Lat.; from per (through) and sono (speak), and the churches in the East used the term hypostasis (Gk).
Inflected forms: pl. hy·pos·ta·ses (-sz)

1. Philosophy The substance, essence, or underlying reality. 2. Christianity a. Any of the persons of the Trinity. b. The essential person of Jesus in which his human and divine natures are united.

The word "Person" in the English was not the original word used. But, it best discribes the distinctions.


Good night all...I'm off to bed for an early rise!!!!

You didn't answer my questions....you answered something I did not ask. I asked about WILL and how CARM was using it

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Believer

Strawman

that's not a strawman...good grief. Why don't you just go through my original post and answer my questions so we can understand. Im trying to understand how CARM and TRINITARIANS understand WILL and PERSON using what you posted from CARM. If I misunderstand then I admit....Im trying to get you to answer my questions now for a couple posts already to clarify this issue. That does not make what I posted a strawman. Im saying based on what CARM said about person and will then it would seem like there should be THREE WILLS in the Trinity.

If you would just kindly answer my questions it would really help. You said before you are not trying to argue, so then it is bothersome that you keep avoiding the questions and charging people with 'strawman' and nothing more. Please believer, Im serious. Please go back to my orginal post where I quoted you and then posted some other trinitarian statements regarding will and asked you some questions. Help us here.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Believer

Probably because your understanding is wrong. I have never heard anyone, not even a Oneness believer ever say such a thing.

I've heard JWB and Cassius on CARM argue this point with me over and over and over again. I've given up talking to them about it.

They disagree that there is a human element involved ie: the Spirit is indwelling a believer when intercession with groanings that cannot be spoken is made. The context of the chapter is geared toward the Spirit of Christ in us.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Kansas Preacher

I'm doing too many things at one time. You can't believe how many times I went back and edited that post.

Let me try again,

He who IS the Son IS God!

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

How is that any different KP from your answer ... He said the I Am ... you said he who is ...

If he wants he could answer you w/ your own words:

He who IS the Father IS God!
He who IS the Son IS God!
He who IS the Holy Spirit IS God!

Originally Posted by Kansas Preacher

I've got no problem with that. I believe that. I just don't believe there are three different people "WHO IS."

Originally Posted by mizpeh

LOL, Dan, your more Trinitarian than Believer is!!!!!

Really??? you have a problem w/ what I've said??? ... KP didn't ...

Perhaps mentioning all three modes, manifestations, aspects, distinctions together spooks you.

You have issue w/ it? LOL. Perhaps you are not Oneness enough?