Is the Father the Son?

Originally Posted by mizpeh

The word they used means a numerical one.

what?

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Originally Posted by Willy Jacks

Well, if dan said the Son always existed, then that would speak to the future as well? I took it as meaning eternally.

The son existed - in that God saw from the beginning of time he would redeem mankind by the sacrifice of the son- giving himself.

There was not a seperate person(s) at anytime.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Willy Jacks

Bob, why didn't Moses you the Hebrew word that means “absolute one,” instead he used the word that also means “compound unity?”

Wrong. Echad is the Hebrew word for the numeric value ONE. It is in fact the word Hebrews would use to mean one in number absolutely. Echad CAN mean a unity, just as One in our language does. But that is not always the case

The Trinitarian argument that the word used would or should have been yachid is fallicious. Just look up the word and see how it is used.

BDB
yâchîyd
BDB Definition:
1) only, only one, solitary, one (adjective)
1a) only, unique, one
1b) solitary
1c) (TWOT) only begotten son
2) one (substantive)


TWOT
Derivative TWOT Number: 858a
Derivative Transliteration: yahid
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference: 3173
Derivative Definition: only, only begotten son.

Derivative TWOT Number: 858c
Derivative Transliteration: yahdaw,
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference: 3162
Derivative Definition: together.

yahid. Only, only begotten son, beloved, solitary. Appears eleven times (KJV twice uses "darling," RSV renders "my life" following the poetic parallel with napsh? or Psa_22:20, [H 21]; Psa_35:17 (NIV "My precious life") and "desolate" in Psa_68:6 [H 7] (ASV follows KJV). LXX translates it seven times with agapetos "beloved" and four times with monogenes "only begotten." The Ugaritic cognate is yhd.

Theologically, yahid is important as it impinges on NT Christology. The word basically refers to an only child (cf, Ug yhd "either 'a person without kith or kin' or 'an only son' subject to military service only under extenuating circumstances," UT 19: no. 410). Jephthah's daughter is described accordingly, "now she was his one and only child, besides her he had neither son nor daughter" (Jdg_11:34). Consider the pathos elicited in Amo_8:10 where the judgment of God is described as "a time of mourning for an only son" (cf. Jer_6:26; Zec_12:10). However, in Gen 22 Abraham is told, "take now your son, your only son (yahid), whom you love ('ahab), Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah. " Here the LXX uses agapetos "beloved" rather than monogenes "only begotten" as in Jdg_11:34. monogenes may be more specific. if so, it could not apply to Isaac who had Ishmael as a half brother. It must be pointed out, however, that even monogenes may "be used more generally without reference to its etymological derivation in the sense of 'unique', 'unparalleled,' 'incomparable,' " (TDNT, IV, p. 738; see especially nn. 5-6).

Another use of yahid is "solitary," "isolated," "lonely." It is used of men, as when David cries out "turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted" (Psa_25:16). God expresses his concern for such in Psa_68:5-6 [H 6-7], "A father of the fatherless and a judge for the widows... God make s a home for the lonely; he leads out the prisoners into prosperity." Dahood, by vocalizing MT yahed as yahid in Psa_86:11, translates, "Yahweh, teach me your way, that I may walk faithfully to you alone; teach my heart to revere your name." (Cf. Psa_88:17 [H 181 "they close in on me alone" as in contrast to "encompassed me altogether.") He then comments, "The king pledges fidelity to Yahweh alone since he alone is God, as afrirmed in the preceeding verse" (AB, Psalms, II, p. 295). Generally, yahad describes the community in action, doing things together. In Psa_34:3 [H 4]; Isa_52:9, the community extols the praise of God together. This unanimity especially for the people of God is beautifully underscored by the LXX'S use of homothumadon ("with the same emotion," i.e. "with the same mind") "unanimously." Demosthenes urges the people to set aside personal feelings replacing it by homothumadon to resist Philip. Hence, personal feelings are not to be considered in "unity." The NT stresses the inner unanimity of the church, as in Rom_15:4-5, "May God... grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." See also Act_1:14; Act_2:1, Act_2:46; Act_4:24; Act_5:12; Act_15:25.


Now check Echad
BDB
1) one (number)
1a) one (number)
1b) each, every
1c) a certain
1d) an (indefinite article)
1e) only, once, once for all
1f) one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one
1g) first
1h) eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal)

TWOT
'ehad can refer to a certain individual (Jdg_13:2) or a single blessing (Gen_27:38). Solomon alone was chosen by the Lord (1Ch_29:1). The notion of uniqueness is also found in 2Sa_7:23 and Eze_33:24 (for this verse with reference to God, see below). The phrase "in a single day" can refer to the suddenness of judgment (Isa_10:17; Isa_47:9) or blessing (Isa_66:8).

Adverbially, 'head means "once" or "one time" (2Ki_6:10). God solemnly swore to David "one time" that his descendants and throne would last forever (Psa_89:35 [H 361). In Hag_2:6 the Lord warned that he would shake heaven and earth "once more in a little while." Yet this prediction of the overthrow of nations probably included a near as well as a far fulfilment (cf. Heb_12:26). The expression "in one day" denotes the swiftness of the Lord's acts (Isa_9:14 [H 131; Zec_3:9).

Sometimes the phrase "as one man" can mean "all at once" (Num_14:15), but when Gideon was told he would defeat Midian "as one man" it probably meant "as easily as a single man" (Jdg_6:16). The phrase can also refer to a nation aroused to take united action against gross injustice (Jdg_20:8; 1Sa_11:7). Zephaniah's mention of people serving God "with one shoulder" (Zep_3:9) likely means "shoulder to shoulder," solidly united. Likewise in Exo_24:3 "with one voice" expresses that all Israel was involved in entering into the Covenant with Yahweh.

And the TWOT adds
In the famous Shema of Deu_6:4, "Hear, O Israel... the LORD is one," the question of diversity within unity has theological implications. Some scholars have felt that, though "one" is singular, the usage of the word allows for the doctrine of the Trinity. While it is true that this doctrine is foreshadowed in the OT, the verse concentrates on the fact that there is one God and that Israel owes its exclusive loyalty to him (Deu_5:9; Deu_6:5). The NT also is strictly monotheistic while at the same time teaching diversity within the unity (Jam_2:19; 1Co_8:5-6).

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Willy Jacks

Well, if dan said the Son always existed, then that would speak to the future as well? I took it as meaning eternally.

Dan's argument was about the Son always existing, not "never ending", which many OPs believe the Son is not going to end.

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by Willy Jacks

Bob, why didn't Moses you the Hebrew word that means “absolute one,” instead he used the word that also means “compound unity?”

The Hebrew word "echad" in Deut 6:4 means one in it's numerical value.

This is from the Brown-Drive-Briggs Hebrew lexicon:

OT:259

'echad --


one (number)
a) one (number)
b) each, every
c) a certain
d) an (indefinite article)
e) only, once, once for all
f) one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one
g) first
h) eleven (in combination), eleventh (or dinal)

(from The Online Bible Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Copyright (c)1993, Woodside Bible Fellowship, Ontario, Canada. Licensed from the Institute for Creation Research.)

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind

The son existed - in that God saw from the beginning of time he would redeem mankind by the sacrifice of the son- giving himself.

There was not a seperate person(s) at anytime.

It would be helpful if you would posts scriptures to back this up. thanks

Originally Posted by BobDylan

The Hebrew word "echad" in Deut 6:4 means one in it's numerical value.

This is from the Brown-Drive-Briggs Hebrew lexicon:

OT:259

'echad --


one (number)
a) one (number)
b) each, every
c) a certain
d) an (indefinite article)
e) only, once, once for all
f) one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one
g) first
h) eleven (in combination), eleventh (or dinal)

(from The Online Bible Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Copyright (c)1993, Woodside Bible Fellowship, Ontario, Canada. Licensed from the Institute for Creation Research.)

I found this web site..please read.


The debate over the implications of the various usage's of two Hebrew words [Yachid vs. Echad] translated "one" is as intriguing as it is complex.
The etymology of the Hebrew word yachid (one) is derived from echad in the same way that the English word "only" is derived from the word "one". That yachid is from the same root family of words as echad is seen from the similarity of spelling. So "yachid" is to "only", what "echad" is to "one".
About the only fact that all on both sides of the debate agree on, is that yachid indisputably means an absolute numeric one and is never used to describe God. Anti-Trinitarians would naturally expect such a word to be commonly used of God. Having said this, when we cross over to the Greek, in parallel passages that use "yachid", we find a correspondence with the Greek word "mono". We do find "mono" used of God in the New Testament describing his oneness. So while yachid is never used of God’s oneness in the Old Testament, the corresponding word "mono" is used of God’s oneness in the New Testament. But this is exactly what Trinitarians would expect to be the case because there are three persons in the one God.
Hebrew is a very simple language, but Greek is quite complex and specific. Some Trinitarians overemphasize the clear differences between "yachid and echad" in the Hebrew. Yes, "echad" is a unified one, but it is also used of a numeric one as well. Yes, "yachid" is never used in reference to God's oneness, but the word "bad" is used and it is synonymous with numeric oneness to yachid. When we cross over to the Greek, we find a similar blur in the words used of God that mean unified versus numeric oneness. If the Holy Spirit intended to convey Trinity hidden in the Old Testament in the words "yachid and echad", we would expect such a distinction to be even more pronounced in the Greek, since it is a more specific language than Hebrew. But we find exactly the same in the New Testament as we do in the old, namely a combination of words meaning unified versus numeric oneness being employed to describe God's oneness.
Having said all this, perhaps the Holy Spirit did want us to look back at the Old Testament and perceive the differences between "yachid and echad". Add to this plural pronouns like: "let US make man in OUR image" and Trinitarians have irrefutable evidence of the trinity in the Old Testament.
Trinitarians can be confident that such diversity of words like "yachid and echad" used to describe God's oneness is exactly what we would expect to find. Anti-Trinitarians and Unitarians are nervous about the fact that the most direct and important statements in the Old Testament about God's oneness (Deut 6:4) use the unified one [echad] instead of a words that always mean numeric oneness like "yachid" and "bad".
Perhaps one of the strongest arguments the Trinitarian can use in the discussion of the words "echad" and "yachid" is the fact that Jews shortly after the rise of Christianity removed "echad" from Deut 6:4 and added in its place the word "yachid".
Jesus quoted Deut 6:4 in Mk 12:29 and chose the "unified oneness" word "hen" which is the same word used by Jesus in Mt 19:5, "the two shall become one (hen) flesh. It is significant that Jesus did not use "mono" in Mk 12:29. The word

http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-...d-vs-echad.htm

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Dan's argument was about the Son always existing, not "never ending", which many OPs believe the Son is not going to end.

Ok, I hear you. I have a question though. If the Son (who is not the Father) is not going to end, then who is He in heaven?

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Wrong. Echad is the Hebrew word for the numeric value ONE. It is in fact the word Hebrews would use to mean one in number absolutely. Echad CAN mean a unity, just as One in our language does. But that is not always the case

The Trinitarian argument that the word used would or should have been yachid is fallicious. Just look up the word and see how it is used.

BDB
yâchîyd
BDB Definition:
1) only, only one, solitary, one (adjective)
1a) only, unique, one
1b) solitary
1c) (TWOT) only begotten son
2) one (substantive)


TWOT
Derivative TWOT Number: 858a
Derivative Transliteration: yahid
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference: 3173
Derivative Definition: only, only begotten son.

Derivative TWOT Number: 858c
Derivative Transliteration: yahdaw,
Derivative Strong's Cross Reference: 3162
Derivative Definition: together.

yahid. Only, only begotten son, beloved, solitary. Appears eleven times (KJV twice uses "darling," RSV renders "my life" following the poetic parallel with napsh? or Psa_22:20, [H 21]; Psa_35:17 (NIV "My precious life") and "desolate" in Psa_68:6 [H 7] (ASV follows KJV). LXX translates it seven times with agapetos "beloved" and four times with monogenes "only begotten." The Ugaritic cognate is yhd.

Theologically, yahid is important as it impinges on NT Christology. The word basically refers to an only child (cf, Ug yhd "either 'a person without kith or kin' or 'an only son' subject to military service only under extenuating circumstances," UT 19: no. 410). Jephthah's daughter is described accordingly, "now she was his one and only child, besides her he had neither son nor daughter" (Jdg_11:34). Consider the pathos elicited in Amo_8:10 where the judgment of God is described as "a time of mourning for an only son" (cf. Jer_6:26; Zec_12:10). However, in Gen 22 Abraham is told, "take now your son, your only son (yahid), whom you love ('ahab), Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah. " Here the LXX uses agapetos "beloved" rather than monogenes "only begotten" as in Jdg_11:34. monogenes may be more specific. if so, it could not apply to Isaac who had Ishmael as a half brother. It must be pointed out, however, that even monogenes may "be used more generally without reference to its etymological derivation in the sense of 'unique', 'unparalleled,' 'incomparable,' " (TDNT, IV, p. 738; see especially nn. 5-6).

Another use of yahid is "solitary," "isolated," "lonely." It is used of men, as when David cries out "turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted" (Psa_25:16). God expresses his concern for such in Psa_68:5-6 [H 6-7], "A father of the fatherless and a judge for the widows... God make s a home for the lonely; he leads out the prisoners into prosperity." Dahood, by vocalizing MT yahed as yahid in Psa_86:11, translates, "Yahweh, teach me your way, that I may walk faithfully to you alone; teach my heart to revere your name." (Cf. Psa_88:17 [H 181 "they close in on me alone" as in contrast to "encompassed me altogether.") He then comments, "The king pledges fidelity to Yahweh alone since he alone is God, as afrirmed in the preceeding verse" (AB, Psalms, II, p. 295). Generally, yahad describes the community in action, doing things together. In Psa_34:3 [H 4]; Isa_52:9, the community extols the praise of God together. This unanimity especially for the people of God is beautifully underscored by the LXX'S use of homothumadon ("with the same emotion," i.e. "with the same mind") "unanimously." Demosthenes urges the people to set aside personal feelings replacing it by homothumadon to resist Philip. Hence, personal feelings are not to be considered in "unity." The NT stresses the inner unanimity of the church, as in Rom_15:4-5, "May God... grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." See also Act_1:14; Act_2:1, Act_2:46; Act_4:24; Act_5:12; Act_15:25.


Now check Echad
BDB
1) one (number)
1a) one (number)
1b) each, every
1c) a certain
1d) an (indefinite article)
1e) only, once, once for all
1f) one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one
1g) first
1h) eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal)

TWOT
'ehad can refer to a certain individual (Jdg_13:2) or a single blessing (Gen_27:38). Solomon alone was chosen by the Lord (1Ch_29:1). The notion of uniqueness is also found in 2Sa_7:23 and Eze_33:24 (for this verse with reference to God, see below). The phrase "in a single day" can refer to the suddenness of judgment (Isa_10:17; Isa_47:9) or blessing (Isa_66:8).

Adverbially, 'head means "once" or "one time" (2Ki_6:10). God solemnly swore to David "one time" that his descendants and throne would last forever (Psa_89:35 [H 361). In Hag_2:6 the Lord warned that he would shake heaven and earth "once more in a little while." Yet this prediction of the overthrow of nations probably included a near as well as a far fulfilment (cf. Heb_12:26). The expression "in one day" denotes the swiftness of the Lord's acts (Isa_9:14 [H 131; Zec_3:9).

Sometimes the phrase "as one man" can mean "all at once" (Num_14:15), but when Gideon was told he would defeat Midian "as one man" it probably meant "as easily as a single man" (Jdg_6:16). The phrase can also refer to a nation aroused to take united action against gross injustice (Jdg_20:8; 1Sa_11:7). Zephaniah's mention of people serving God "with one shoulder" (Zep_3:9) likely means "shoulder to shoulder," solidly united. Likewise in Exo_24:3 "with one voice" expresses that all Israel was involved in entering into the Covenant with Yahweh.

And the TWOT adds
In the famous Shema of Deu_6:4, "Hear, O Israel... the LORD is one," the question of diversity within unity has theological implications. Some scholars have felt that, though "one" is singular, the usage of the word allows for the doctrine of the Trinity. While it is true that this doctrine is foreshadowed in the OT, the verse concentrates on the fact that there is one God and that Israel owes its exclusive loyalty to him (Deu_5:9; Deu_6:5). The NT also is strictly monotheistic while at the same time teaching diversity within the unity (Jam_2:19; 1Co_8:5-6).

That is a lot said without posting the links!

Originally Posted by BoredOutOfMyMind

The son existed - in that God saw from the beginning of time he would redeem mankind by the sacrifice of the son- giving himself.

There was not a seperate person(s) at anytime.

Show scripture please.