Why are UPC church's so sectarian?

Originally Posted by crazyhomie

If there is so much truth in UPC, then why are folks so threatened by others who do not believe the same. Truthfully, most married couples don't agree on everything, some republican and democrat, but still live in the same house. Why is it that UPC pastors discourage their saints to fellowship even with others who are more liberal than they are? My brother wants to know.

Tis true, we have heard that the UPCi has 100% Truth. And even though Bro Haney has implored us to invade other denominations with the Truth, many within are threatened by them and have ignored his charge.

It's a Holy Ghost check if their ever was one.

In fact, they are threatened of one another sometimes, whether within the oneness apostolic movement, or the UPCi. Some liberal pastors are threatened by their members visiting more conservative groups as well. I thought I would throw that in for balance and because I'm watching it happen currently.

Very unChristian and unBiblical indeed.

Nevertheless, some of my ex-Amish friends are amazed at the control some that do not rule well try to wield in their lives. Thankfully, they have enough brothers and sisters in Christ to counter it with encouragement and sound doctrine.

My burden and time spent within other groups, mostly more conservative Anabaptists, slowly cost me the support of my former pastor and his followers. They wanted me involved within their four walled ministry that they had constructed, God wanted something else. He believed that he would always hear from God before us, and since he didn't get the message personally, prior to us, it was "never given," and I'm some kind of irresponsible rebellious unteachable.

As I tried to explain my burden for the Anabaptist movement, he informed me that an Amish man that was building his monster house smoked a pipe, so I'm wasting my time basically.

No matter, all is forgiven, I simply left not long after to follow my calling. I was in the middle of some radical studying when God just called me out along with another family that, unknown to me, was involved with similar studies and felt the same calling to leave.

Love it or leave it!?

Yeah, I do both. I love the UPCi and its members no matter their shortcomings and doctrines of men, but I had to follow God's leading. He's been faithful all of the way, even when I struggled within the clefts of the Rock.

Someday they will understand, even if I make the powers that be a little uneasy with my presence and early church teachings. I mean no harm and have not caused any trouble. I cite my references instead of calling on the traditions of men.

Tell your brother I said hello.

Originally Posted by Theophilus

Tis true, we have heard that the UPCi has 100% Truth. And even though Bro Haney has implored us to invade other denominations with the Truth, many within are threatened by them and have ignored his charge.

It's a Holy Ghost check if their ever was one.

In fact, they are threatened of one another sometimes, whether within the oneness apostolic movement, or the UPCi. Some liberal pastors are threatened by their members visiting more conservative groups as well. I thought I would throw that in for balance and because I'm watching it happen currently.

Very unChristian and unBiblical indeed.

Nevertheless, some of my ex-Amish friends are amazed at the control some that do not rule well try to wield in their lives. Thankfully, they have enough brothers and sisters in Christ to counter it with encouragement and sound doctrine.

My burden and time spent within other groups, mostly more conservative Anabaptists, slowly cost me the support of my former pastor and his followers. They wanted me involved within their four walled ministry that they had constructed, God wanted something else. He believed that he would always hear from God before us, and since he didn't get the message personally, prior to us, it was "never given," and I'm some kind of irresponsible rebellious unteachable.

As I tried to explain my burden for the Anabaptist movement, he informed me that an Amish man that was building his monster house smoked a pipe, so I'm wasting my time basically.

No matter, all is forgiven, I simply left not long after to follow my calling. I was in the middle of some radical studying when God just called me out along with another family that, unknown to me, was involved with similar studies and felt the same calling to leave.

Love it or leave it!?

Yeah, I do both. I love the UPCi and its members no matter their shortcomings and doctrines of men, but I had to follow God's leading. He's been faithful all of the way, even when I struggled within the clefts of the Rock.

Someday they will understand, even if I make the powers that be a little uneasy with my presence and early church teachings. I mean no harm and have not caused any trouble. I cite my references instead of calling on the traditions of men.

Tell your brother I said hello.

My brother says Hi and God bless you and the work you are doing. It's sad that you have to leave the UPC to win the lost, or is it the lost our sitting on the benches worried about their own salvation? Anyway we'll never now will we? Isn't it funny how ever church thinks they're right including the baptists down the street? Who is lost anyway? Think about it, the blind leading the blind. Galatians 3:1 Ck it out.

Originally Posted by crazyhomie

My brother says Hi and God bless you and the work you are doing. It's sad that you have to leave the UPC to win the lost, or is it the lost our sitting on the benches worried about their own salvation? Anyway we'll never now will we? Isn't it funny how ever church thinks they're right including the baptists down the street? Who is lost anyway? Think about it, the blind leading the blind. Galatians 3:1 Ck it out.

I'm trying to win the lost from off of the benches too, but some are too complacent with their reserved arrangement. I pray they make it.

Paul deals with this division nicely in 1 Cor 1:

10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. 11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. 12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. 13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

It appears that these denominations where mostly either started by one man's theology or also literally named after him. You'd think that might stand out to Christendom like a big red flag.

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

RevRandy is right. I feel it is another form of control. They, the pastors, may not fellowship the more liberal ones because of their elitism. Alot of preacher in this movement are of the mind 'if you do not agree with me then we can not fellowship' or the 'my conviction are greater why lower myself to that level'. It is crazy, but common. I remember in the ALJC most of the churches are similar so there is not as much competition. But I remember times that people didn't fellowship one another because of crazy things

I don't fellowship with liberal churches and it's not about control. I don't think it's because i'm an elitist either. "How can two walk together except they agree?" I'm not offended by others people's convictions and I don't care that others wear shorts and have facial hair. I do care when saints from other churches say things like "your in bondage" to members of our church. I don't think i'm any better than anyone but I would rather be around people that have the same outlook on ministry and life as I have. This is also true for our church.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by UltraCon

I don't fellowship with liberal churches and it's not about control. I don't think it's because i'm an elitist either. "How can two walk together except they agree?" I'm not offended by others people's convictions and I don't care that others wear shorts and have facial hair. I do care when saints from other churches say things like "your in bondage" to members of our church. I don't think i'm any better than anyone but I would rather be around people that have the same outlook on ministry and life as I have. This is also true for our church.

I understand the "how can two walk together unless they agree" thing, but you must first look and say do we have more disagreements or agreements. Then you must look at the disagreements and see if they are worth fighting over. Most of the time they are not worth it. We can do a greater good together, but most UC's will not allow it.

There is no reason for any lib/mod to say anything about bondage. The truth is alot of people that are libs feel that alot of saints in your church are under bondage, but that is just opinion. IMO there is no need for extra biblical teaching, but I realize that some of these teachings have made a difference in ones life. But also they have torn people apart. As you I am not offended by differing view to mine though I think something UC's do are not needed. I do not try to change others minds. I think that alot of UC's and probably you too feel that if your saints fellowship with libs then your people will move the libs way and not the libs move the Cons way. Am I correct?

Allow me to ask you something. If there is a saint in your church that has followed standards for years then gets eye-opening experience and begans to follow the more lib minded way would you care? If it doesn't bother you for someone to have a different opinion than you is it ok for them to fellowship with your church still? I de feel that alot of it is a elitest mentality. You say it is not, but think of this, a lib can fellowship with a UC and no problems will arise except that the UC will refuse to fellowship with the libs. If the Libs are willing and wanting to fellowship the UC's, but the UC's do not want to fellowship the Libs tell me how this is not elitism?

Originally Posted by UltraCon

I don't fellowship with liberal churches and it's not about control. I don't think it's because i'm an elitist either. "How can two walk together except they agree?" I'm not offended by others people's convictions and I don't care that others wear shorts and have facial hair. I do care when saints from other churches say things like "your in bondage" to members of our church. I don't think i'm any better than anyone but I would rather be around people that have the same outlook on ministry and life as I have. This is also true for our church.

I'm curious, is it more important to be around people with the same outlook on ministry and life, than to have the truth?

I appreciate your humble approach, I ask humbly, if two or more agree and are blind to the truth to some degree do they not get closer to the ditch together?

I'm rather conservative myself, these questions can apply to any of us across the spectrum.

I just can't figure out how, for example, trading in a God given beard in egyptian originated fashion for the clothing of the business/political world, complete with the french based fashion noose, is more conservative with respect to Christianity.

Nor do I understand how shorts that cover properly can be relegated to liberalism when the same conservative people allow their women to bare the flesh similarly.

Is it simply because the legs are shaved. Would then shorts on men be acceptable if the bare flesh had all the hair removed?

The Truth is out there, are we inclined to follow him, or men?

Does absence of the truth in these matters take away from the body's unity?

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

I understand the "how can two walk together unless they agree" thing, but you must first look and say do we have more disagreements or agreements. Then you must look at the disagreements and see if they are worth fighting over. Most of the time they are not worth it. We can do a greater good together, but most UC's will not allow it.

There is no reason for any lib/mod to say anything about bondage. The truth is alot of people that are libs feel that alot of saints in your church are under bondage, but that is just opinion. IMO there is no need for extra biblical teaching, but I realize that some of these teachings have made a difference in ones life. But also they have torn people apart. As you I am not offended by differing view to mine though I think something UC's do are not needed. I do not try to change others minds. I think that alot of UC's and probably you too feel that if your saints fellowship with libs then your people will move the libs way and not the libs move the Cons way. Am I correct?

Allow me to ask you something. If there is a saint in your church that has followed standards for years then gets eye-opening experience and begans to follow the more lib minded way would you care? If it doesn't bother you for someone to have a different opinion than you is it ok for them to fellowship with your church still? I de feel that alot of it is a elitest mentality. You say it is not, but think of this, a lib can fellowship with a UC and no problems will arise except that the UC will refuse to fellowship with the libs. If the Libs are willing and wanting to fellowship the UC's, but the UC's do not want to fellowship the Libs tell me how this is not elitism?

Nice post. What would happen if we all just moved closer to the Truth?

Originally Posted by UltraCon

I don't fellowship with liberal churches and it's not about control. I don't think it's because i'm an elitist either. "How can two walk together except they agree?" I'm not offended by others people's convictions and I don't care that others wear shorts and have facial hair. I do care when saints from other churches say things like "your in bondage" to members of our church. I don't think i'm any better than anyone but I would rather be around people that have the same outlook on ministry and life as I have. This is also true for our church.

Having said that; Why are you concerned with what people say about you, unless there is some modicum of truth to it. You don't need to defend the truth. Also, had Jesus not "fellowshipped" with sinners, you and I would not have the opportunity to be saved. The problem with that mentality is that its "exclusive" and not "inclusive" which is the basic problem with the UPC. If you really have the truth UC then why aren't you willing to let your light shine...to whoever, whenever? God loves everybody and He doesn't pick and choose who He fellowships with or who he prays for. Whoever calls on him will be saved including the drug addict or the ultracon, it doesn't matter. Whoesoever will let him drink of the water of life freely...By the way, how can you influence anyone who isn't your friend or will listen to you? Its all about relationship...

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Theophilus

Nice post. What would happen if we all just moved closer to the Truth?

See that is the thing to each group truth is relational. UC's believe truth Libs see another. The fact is that there is 1 and only truth. I think that if we can fellowship and link together in a "United Effort" then we can accomplish great things. But wasn't that the reason the PCI and PAJC joined together in the first place? I honestly feel that the Libs can be happy fellowshipping with the UC's but the UC's will not feel comfortable fellowshipping us. I was once a UC's to the higher standards, but I saw how judgemental I was and the elitist mind I lived by. I see others doing it at it stinks. But I would love to see the day for the PCI and the PAJC minds to met and fellowship and fellowship only not legislate a lifestyle.

Originally Posted by crazyhomie

Having said that; Why are you concerned with what people say about you, unless there is some modicum of truth to it. You don't need to defend the truth. Also, had Jesus not "fellowshipped" with sinners, you and I would not have the opportunity to be saved. The problem with that mentality is that its "exclusive" and not "inclusive" which is the basic problem with the UPC. If you really have the truth UC then why aren't you willing to let your light shine...to whoever, whenever? God loves everybody and He doesn't pick and choose who He fellowships with or who he prays for. Whoever calls on him will be saved including the drug addict or the ultracon, it doesn't matter. Whoesoever will let him drink of the water of life freely...By the way, how can you influence anyone who isn't your friend or will listen to you? Its all about relationship...

Good post. The truth is that the Bible is conservative with liberty and moderation. The trouble with Christians in this regard is that we have largely chosen to commit to one and disregard the others.

From my vantage point, it seems that is why each camp has good points about various issues....

....if we had better relationships, these differences would find resolution according to the entire truth in love as we ascend closer to Christ and all of his teachings.