Do you hafta go through the pastor?

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

Uhhh, excuse me for interupting my friend. I have read most of everything on this thread and maybe I'm just not bright enough to quite understand you. I have come to my own conclusions concerning everything that you have posted, but you still cannot effectively explain away what coonskinner or "gl" have posted earlier. Your educated and well thought out grammar is not going to negate pastoral authority. It is the responsability of the man of God to deliver his word with authority. The job of a pastor is to guide and lead a flock. It does you no good to use fancy smancy speech to argue against God given authority. I hope you well.

so, in your understanding of scripture...
If the responsibility of the PASTOR is lead the flock, what is the primary responsibility of the sheep that he leads?

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

I hope I am not speaking out of turn but I do know Rico and know he has been hurt...deeply hurt ...sometimes it takes a time to get over hurts.
Just onight something happend: We left around 3 our time to get to a 4 o´clock baby shower then stayed as we were having a 7 PM service in the same village. We had an awesome service and got in around 10 or so our time. When we opened the gate (remote control) here were 3 men standing in our driveway. It was dark and the first thing Brother Alvear did was say Oh no! Put the car in reverse and I realized it was some new young boys and our son! We thought it was robbers as we have had so many experiences...It was just some boys that had been practicing the guitar...but we have had so many scares that was Brother Alvear´s first reaction...

Kinda like Rico...he has had bad experiences and it makes it hard for him to trust.

In trusting we must realize we are all human. I love my pastor he is a very wise man. I know today if certain people would have been my pastor thousands of souls that have been brought to light might still be in darkness.
So when you seek a pastor seek for a wise man. That does not mean you will see eye to eye on every subject but it does mean if you sit under him he will be your guide.

Sister, you are so right. I've been asking for Him to show me where I should go to church, and I should have been asking Him for someone I can trust to guide me instead.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by Rico

The bolded part is the only thing that doesn't sit well with me. Why would you let personal differences stand in the way of someone fulfilling their call? I mean, I know the "why" of your reasoning-pastors like a united front line and worry that anyone who doesn't line up with what they believe will ultimately end up being trouble. However, ultimately, the church is God's, and He knows how to deal with people who are trouble makers.

Not just any little disagreement, Rico.

There are certain minimum standards that I require folks to comply with before they can participate in leadership.

Here is a little factoid for you--I have sat more people down for attitude and conduct issues than I ever have for refusal to comply in outward and adornment issues. Those are easy.

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by tbpew

so, in your understanding of scripture...
If the responsibility of the PASTOR is lead the flock, what is the primary responsibility of the sheep that he leads?

Lets see, if a pastor leads, that means that the flock follows???? Hows that for an answer?

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

Lets see, if a pastor leads, that means that the flock follows???? Hows that for an answer?

It is the exact answer I would expect but could not bring myself to putting the words in your mouth.

You have painted the scene that encapsulates the peril of advancing a RULER-based denomination of authority within the body of Christ. If non-rulers (your SHEEP) have their primary responsibility to follow/obey the ruler(you), they are not sons of God because they are not being directly led by the Spirit.

They are being led by the Pastor, who presummably is being led by the Spirit.
You (and by no means do I mean YOU singularly) may say, "NO WAY, that's rediculous" or expressed another way "that's a Red Herring!"

Can a person follow two leaders or guides and be STABLE?
Can a person be the disciple of two masters?

Successful bodies have ONE head.

So at the end of the day, I return for the fifth time or so to the fallacy of the reading Heb 13:17 (the one you believe I can not answer). Taking this verse as a witness depicting a Body of Christ having RULERS who should be OBEYED, other than or in addition to the Head of the body, can not be a witness of light to the reader. To do so would create a double-mindedness within the individual member in Christ.

Hebrews 13:17 is acknowledging we do have guides who have been provided as God's gift to his own body. Their leadership is demonstrated by their having GONE BEFORE us in demonstration of the authority in matters pertaining to spiritual dominions that are subject to the name of Jesus.

We must be able to certify for ourselves that they are guides who are appropriate to be followed. NO GUIDE has dominion over the one he leads. No follower is a SUBJECT of the one who is leading. The follower follows a guide at his own risk based on what he (the follower) has determined about the qualities of the guide. Basic stuff seen everyday in the temporal world.

On the other hand...
RULERs do not SHARE their RULE.
Your system (pastor leading, sheep following) will instruct that unity and the avoidance of strife is based on an allegiance given to one guide for all matters pertaining to the SHEEP. That is why in the assembly of the called-out ones that is richly blessed by God with many helps, guides, servants, and giftings, the general principal is that only the local RULERS have mobility to fellowship other guides.

IMO,
Your words trap you in a view involving your belief system about God's delivery model for edification and perfecting of his saints.
Your view is based much more in the former things, prior to a veil being rent and a side being pierced.
Your view teaches an understanding that Moses' seat is being filled today by Pastors.

btw, after three days for purification the entire congregation was invited to fellowship with God on the Holy Mountain.

Originally Posted by tbpew

It is the exact answer I would expect but could not bring myself to putting the words in your mouth.

You have painted the scene that encapsulates the peril of advancing a RULER-based denomination of authority within the body of Christ. If non-rulers (your SHEEP) have their primary responsibility to follow/obey the ruler(you), they are not sons of God because they are not being directly led by the Spirit.

They are being led by the Pastor, who presummably is being led by the Spirit.
You (and by no means do I mean YOU singularly) may say, "NO WAY, that's rediculous" or expressed another way "that's a Red Herring!"

Can a person follow two leaders or guides and be STABLE?
Can a person be the disciple of two masters?

Successful bodies have ONE head.

So at the end of the day, I return for the fifth time or so to the fallacy of the reading Heb 13:17 (the one you believe I can not answer). Taking this verse as a witness depicting a Body of Christ having RULERS who should be OBEYED, other than or in addition to the Head of the body, can not be a witness of light to the reader. To do so would create a double-mindedness within the individual member in Christ.

Hebrews 13:17 is acknowledging we do have guides who have been provided as God's gift to his own body. Their leadership is demonstrated by their having GONE BEFORE us in demonstration of the authority in matters pertaining to spiritual dominions that are subject to the name of Jesus.

We must be able to certify for ourselves that they are guides who are appropriate to be followed. NO GUIDE has dominion over the one he leads. No follower is a SUBJECT of the one who is leading. The follower follows a guide at his own risk based on what he (the follower) has determined about the qualities of the guide. Basic stuff seen everyday in the temporal world.

On the other hand...
RULERs do not SHARE their RULE.
Your system (pastor leading, sheep following) will instruct that unity and the avoidance of strife is based on an allegiance given to one guide for all matters pertaining to the SHEEP. That is why in the assembly of the called-out ones that is richly blessed by God with many helps, guides, servants, and giftings, the general principal is that only the local RULERS have mobility to fellowship other guides.

IMO,
Your words trap you in a view involving your belief system about God's delivery model for edification and perfecting of his saints.
Your view is based much more in the former things, prior to a veil being rent and a side being pierced.
Your view teaches an understanding that Moses' seat is being filled today by Pastors.

btw, after three days for purification the entire congregation was invited to fellowship with God on the Holy Mountain.

Very interesting post.

What is a pastor's job then?

Do/Can 'sheep' ever mature past the point of being just 'sheep?'

If so, do you think it possible for these 'sheep' to graduate to a level of spiritual maturity beyond that of some pastors?

How important is it to put the valuable resource of pastors in proper Biblical context and perspective?

[Sister Alvear]

leaders/ pastores are to take care of the sheep is my point of veiw... I know places where it is to the extreme...but balanced people know what I am talking about. My husband is a pastor...so as his wife and helper a great responsibility rests on our shoulders. We will give account one day how we led God´s precious lambs.
I don´t like to hear so called pastors talking about how they skinned the sheep. We lead them not abuse them. We may correct them in love but we do not skin them.

Originally Posted by Rico

I have a question I would like to throw out for discussion. Most of you know the conventional path to ministry is to let your pastor know you feel called, have him mentor you some, maybe have him set up some preaching gigs, etc. etc. It's good to have a mentor. I am not against taking this path into ministry in any way, shape, or form. However, I have recently begun to wonder if this established path into ministry is the only path. Take Paul's own words:


15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: 17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. 18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. 19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
Gal 1:15-19 (KJV)


I haven't had the chance to study out the whole timeframe, but it is evident that Paul did not go talk with any of the apostles to get their approval of his ministry until well after he had been preaching.



1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Matt 3:1-2 (KJV)


Who mentored John the Baptist?


My question to all of you is this-Do you believe that there are people, who are called of God, that God qualifies as ministers of His Holy Word, apart from them taking the established path I spoke about in my first paragraph?

The reason I ask is because God is calling me back into prison ministry. The conventional side of me is saying it can't be God because I don't have a church home. I don't have a pastor to guide me in any ministerial effort I make. My mind is telling me there has to be some sort of mistake. But there is another side of me saying that I don't need man's approval to take the Word of God to the jails and prisons in this area. This other side is telling me that God has already called and qualified me for this ministry and that I need to obey Him.

I am in a quandry, gang. Everything I have ever been taught about ministry says you can't go out and preach without a church home, without a pastor backing you, without that recommendation. But I see in the Bible where others just obeyed God and went when He said to go. This is hard for me to reconcile. I need to hear some feedback. What do you think? Does God ever work outside the lines?

Rico,

O dear brother, fret not thyself any longer, nor let those powers that wanna be discourage you.

You are on to something here. Follow Christ's calling first. Get involved in your area of ministerial calling with or without man's assistance.

I believe that God will provide the means to complete your calling. That, of course, doesn't mean it will fall in your lap, I know that you know this. Thus, do your part and God will meet you there. Be patient.

I followed after my calling despite my former pastor's attitude towards it. He wanted me involved with his ministry, God wanted me involved with His, that he had for me.

I had to leave those that were not supportive. The local pulpit then reviled me, not by name of course. You know the drill.

Thankfully, it wasn't long before the Lord sent people into our lives that were supportive and some with like burdens. I now enjoy a network of like-minded members of the Body of Christ.

With all the Lord has done and is now doing, one would be hard pressed to mock our efforts from their pulpit, especially in light of their own problems...same as it ever was...maybe worse.

Nevertheless, I have forgiven and have moved on with the focus that the Lord has given. I therefore would like to encourage you Rico. You will reap in due season. The harvest is there, the laborers few.

Wade into the harvest brother, in the field which you have been given. God wants all the help he can get. Woe unto those that would keep us in their perpetual personal training camps. Some things won't be learned on the sidelines.

Be blessed and Godspeed.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by tbpew

Welcome back Barb.
I look forward to your perspective in regard to the setting questions I asked you yesterday.
But you do not have to hurry, I will be visiting a family until around noon.

Bro. Pew, I answered your questions, albeit ineptly. You need not feel the pressure to respond to my long response...just letting you know.

[BrotherEastman]

Originally Posted by tbpew

It is the exact answer I would expect but could not bring myself to putting the words in your mouth.

You have painted the scene that encapsulates the peril of advancing a RULER-based denomination of authority within the body of Christ. If non-rulers (your SHEEP) have their primary responsibility to follow/obey the ruler(you), they are not sons of God because they are not being directly led by the Spirit.

They are being led by the Pastor, who presummably is being led by the Spirit.
You (and by no means do I mean YOU singularly) may say, "NO WAY, that's rediculous" or expressed another way "that's a Red Herring!"

Can a person follow two leaders or guides and be STABLE?
Can a person be the disciple of two masters?

Successful bodies have ONE head.

So at the end of the day, I return for the fifth time or so to the fallacy of the reading Heb 13:17 (the one you believe I can not answer). Taking this verse as a witness depicting a Body of Christ having RULERS who should be OBEYED, other than or in addition to the Head of the body, can not be a witness of light to the reader. To do so would create a double-mindedness within the individual member in Christ.

Hebrews 13:17 is acknowledging we do have guides who have been provided as God's gift to his own body. Their leadership is demonstrated by their having GONE BEFORE us in demonstration of the authority in matters pertaining to spiritual dominions that are subject to the name of Jesus.

We must be able to certify for ourselves that they are guides who are appropriate to be followed. NO GUIDE has dominion over the one he leads. No follower is a SUBJECT of the one who is leading. The follower follows a guide at his own risk based on what he (the follower) has determined about the qualities of the guide. Basic stuff seen everyday in the temporal world.

On the other hand...
RULERs do not SHARE their RULE.
Your system (pastor leading, sheep following) will instruct that unity and the avoidance of strife is based on an allegiance given to one guide for all matters pertaining to the SHEEP. That is why in the assembly of the called-out ones that is richly blessed by God with many helps, guides, servants, and giftings, the general principal is that only the local RULERS have mobility to fellowship other guides.

IMO,
Your words trap you in a view involving your belief system about God's delivery model for edification and perfecting of his saints.
Your view is based much more in the former things, prior to a veil being rent and a side being pierced.
Your view teaches an understanding that Moses' seat is being filled today by Pastors.

btw, after three days for purification the entire congregation was invited to fellowship with God on the Holy Mountain.

Okay, okay. I can't help but to ask, what is the purpose of a pastor?
IMO
(based upon what you are saying) You have no need for a pastor.
A pastors job is not to lead or guide the flock.
You do not go to church, because you do not believe in the conventional authority of a pastors office. Again, I realize that I may be drawing conclusions about you, but you have yet to explain why we do not need the authority of a pastor.