Do you hafta go through the pastor?

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Sheltiedad

Do you hafta go through the pastor?

Maybe, if you are at the Sizzler...

They still have SIzzlers where you live?

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Theophilus

I don't know... I took the time to write a serious post of encouragement and it was overlooked on account of all of this.


Rico......Follow Christ first.....He will send you support and reinforcements.

Brother, I read your post. It didn't get lost in the shuffle. I appreciate the advice.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Barb

Okay, Bro. Pew...here's a question...

We have been quoting the first part of this Scripture...

Heb 13:17

17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves:

What say ye of the rest of this verse?!

for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.
KJV

Barb,
Your guestion would be better directed toward Coonskinner. He has consistently provided words that you can find agreement with in your spirit. Please ask him to provide his interpretation.

IF my view troubles your spirit (causes much sighing), it should not be considered without a second or third witness.

If they (these rulers) are giving an account of MY LIFE, you and the Skinner of Coon are right in this whole matter, they are certainly folks who have the RULE in my life and I am commanded by scripture tor OBEY them. And when the scripture says, let every servant answer to his own master, SUBJECTs would answer to Pastors and Pastors would answer to CHRIST. Afterall, a man can not SERVE TWO masters.

and not only that...
these folks in Heb 13:17 have become my mediator between me and whoever they are giving this account to ABOUT me. If they are not in a role of mediator, what are they doing giving an account of my life to any one?

I reject this interpretation of the witness of Heb 13:17 as being faulty when considered in the larger witness of scripture and the clear witness that the man Christ Jesus is mediator between me and God.

These folks must give account for what they have been given and what they have done with what they have received. But they were not given SUBJECTs to have dominion over. They were given giftings, understandings, revelations, and authority over spiritual things.

Every servant that has received from God will give account for how they used what they have received.

[mizpeh]

tbpew,

I think there are two different things going on here which you have made one and the same. It has to do with the gift of ministry and its role in the body and maybe what you see as the abuse of that gift.

God has provided in both testaments for the teaching of his people. Teachers who guide and are not suppose to rule. In being guides, leaders, shepherds there is authority that goes with it. You may reason that there is no authority with those gifts but the Bible says otherwise. They are not mediators like Catholic priests. Paul say we are to work out our own salvation and then he gives commands to the church and admits to having power given to him by the grace of God. Somehow these two things have to be harmonized and IMO, please don't be offended, you aren't reconciling the two. Individual accountability and pastoral accountability and the 'rule' that goes with being a leader in the body.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by tbpew

Barb,
Your guestion would be better directed toward Coonskinner. He has consistently provided words that you can find agreement with in your spirit. Please ask him to provide his interpretation.

IF my view troubles your spirit (causes much sighing), it should not be considered without a second or third witness.

If they (these rulers) are giving an account of MY LIFE, you and the Skinner of Coon are right in this whole matter, they are certainly folks who have the RULE in my life and I am commanded by scripture tor OBEY them. And when the scripture says, let every servant answer to his own master, SUBJECTs would answer to Pastors and Pastors would answer to CHRIST. Afterall, a man can not SERVE TWO masters.

and not only that...
these folks in Heb 13:17 have become my mediator between me and whoever they are giving this account to ABOUT me. If they are not in a role of mediator, what are they doing giving an account of my life to any one?

I reject this interpretation of the witness of Heb 13:17 as being faulty when considered in the larger witness of scripture and the clear witness that the man Christ Jesus is mediator between me and God.

These folks must give account for what they have been given and what they have done with what they have received. But they were not given SUBJECTs to have dominion over. They were given giftings, understandings, revelations, and authority over spiritual things.

Every servant that has received from God will give account for how they used what they have received.

The writer of Hebrews said that if their account was with grief, that would be unprofitable for you, not themselves.

[Coonskinner]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

tbpew,

I think there are two different things going on here which you have made one and the same. It has to do with the gift of ministry and its role in the body and maybe what you see as the abuse of that gift.

God has provided in both testaments for the teaching of his people. Teachers who guide and are not suppose to rule. In being guides, leaders, shepherds there is authority that goes with it. You may reason that there is no authority with those gifts but the Bible says otherwise. They are not mediators like Catholic priests. Paul say we are to work out our own salvation and then he gives commands to the church and admits to having power given to him by the grace of God. Somehow these two things have to be harmonized and IMO, please don't be offended, you aren't reconciling the two. Individual accountability and pastoral accountability and the 'rule' that goes with being a leader in the body.

Good post.

[mizpeh]

TBpew,

I want to thank you for sharing your POV. I've never given this subject much consideration until now. I like having to dig a little deeper than what's on the surface.

I'm still not completely sure where I stand but like I said before, I'll probably end up somewhere in the middle.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

tbpew,

I think there are two different things going on here which you have made one and the same. It has to do with the gift of ministry and its role in the body and maybe what you see as the abuse of that gift.

God has provided in both testaments for the teaching of his people. Teachers who guide and are not suppose to rule. In being guides, leaders, shepherds there is authority that goes with it. You may reason that there is no authority with those gifts but the Bible says otherwise. They are not mediators like Catholic priests. Paul say we are to work out our own salvation and then he gives commands to the church and admits to having power given to him by the grace of God. Somehow these two things have to be harmonized and IMO, please don't be offended, you aren't reconciling the two. Individual accountability and pastoral accountability and the 'rule' that goes with being a leader in the body.

Miz,
I find no dissent with your words, but the lack of completeness is very troubling considering that extent to which I have labored to express that speaking of authority without regards to its realm of application is of zero value.

You submit that a pastor has authority....fine! Tell us then in what matters it operates and what or who is subject to it.

Anyone who does not obey an authority that God has placed in their lives is rebellous.

Miz, it is certainly not about abuse power that God has given, obviously I am saying that God has not given any man power(authority) over any member of the body of Christ.

IMO, It's much more about a return to the snare of wanting a king just like the other churches have. It's about being invited to fellowship God on the holy mountain but choosing instead to let the guy who sits in Moses' seat do it. It's about a veil being rent to provide access for all and then watching men sow up the veil and make disciples unto themselves.

[tbpew]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

The writer of Hebrews said that if their account was with grief, that would be unprofitable for you, not themselves.

Sure, because the witness is not about how we should OBEY someone who has RULE over us, but about how we should FOLLOW those Guides/leaders who God has provided as gifts along our journey.

Only an blind idiot would reject the profitable-ness of following somebody who has gone before (an elder) in the type of matters I am presently walking into or through.

But come on CS, every good Methodist minister could provide wisdom he or she has learned from their journey in life and consideration of scripture. But I do not think for a second you would advance a view point that says...OBEY them or even FOLOW them.

The reason is because each of us must be led by spirit to QUALIFY any one we choose to follow. (that is what makes me accountable for my own choices). I will not go to heaven for obeying a blind guide.

Things like ...
Does the guy I am following have evidence that God is with him?
Does he only have one wife?
Is he a novice?
Does he have a good report with them that are without?

If he doesn't, why would I following his guidance? And if I am to qualify (yes the treaded "judge" word), he does NOT have RULE concerning me as an individual --period, no middle ground on this.

The context of Heb 13:17 is counsel for how I should thoughtfully consider and act within the presence of servants that God has provided with giftings for our own journey and the edification of his own body.

[tbpew]

Is Paul saying:
FOLLOW me?

or

Is Paul saying FOLLOW the way I FOLLOW CHRIST.

Is our command to follow Paul or to follow Christ?

The scripture is being given as light, truth is being illuminated. Are we to be follower's of Paul?

Are we disciples of the one we follow?

Are men making disciples unto themselves by advancing a premise by saying FOLOW ME because God has put me OVER you.