Still In Shock in Tampa!

[Ron]

Originally Posted by philjones

Brother,

It is just too funny... you are intent on judging me unfairly. In the entire TV debate I have NEVER stated my position pro or con. It is not a fight that nedds to be fought.

I am for progessive methods... just not at the expense of fundemental doctrine OF SALVATION!!!!!

You need to accept that I am not an ultra con.. I just have the capacity to love them just as much as I love the ultra liberal and the capacity not judge them but to let them work out their own salvation.

Just curious, why are you so intent on disagreeing with me and others?

I am comfortable with both groups because I realized 8.5 years ago when I came back to my Father's house that my relationship with Jesus is one on one. I can't serve him for you and you cannot serve him for me.

Now... if you will just stop... not judging... PREjudging me... maybe we could have a normal conversation.

Have a good day!

Very well put Bro!

[James Griffin]

Originally Posted by philjones

Brother,

i am going to try this one last time.

The things that were said to CC1 in my first post to him were intentionally asinine... I was saying things to him a legalist would say in an effort show him how it feels to a man who is conservative by choice when someone says that he is conservative because he can't face the real world and is hiding behind the skirts of legalism.

If you can comprehend this then I will continue discussing this with you. If you cannot clearly state that you are clear on the above paragraph, continuing this discussion would be futile.

Your response will determine mine.

Just as an FYI... let me copy and paste one of my posts from another thread. DA PMd me and asked me to weigh in on the topic and I did.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Poster View Post
This is a quite aggressive article from someone outside of the org. I will comment on this later this evening.

PP,

I agree that the article is aggressive... but is it wrong? Have we as a movement (not just the UPC) lost the proper perspective... the ability to see things in their relative importance? Has our emphasis so shifted from the vanishing point that we have become a skewed, unfocused picture of what God intended us to be? Has the Kingdom of God (righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost) been lost in the trappings of meat and drink? Have we disinherited our spiritually born, full blood brethren when only the earnest of the inheritance is actually ours? Have we sought our differences to the detriment of our likeness?

I am concerned that one of the other things that accompanies devolution is often genocide. God forbid that we would bite and devour one another as though we were the enemy.

The UPC needs to reestablish itself on the basic and fundamental doctrine as stated in the articles of faith and they need to recommit to the principle of unity!

Enough of my rambling... I will try to respond in a more structured manner later.

This is who I am. Believe it.... Or not!

Yes and the original article was pretty good too. PP never "commented 'though, but I did appreciate yours BTW. :sshhh

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by philjones

Brother,

It is just too funny... you are intent on judging me unfairly. In the entire TV debate I have NEVER stated my position pro or con. It is not a fight that nedds to be fought.

I am for progessive methods... just not at the expense of fundemental doctrine OF SALVATION!!!!!

You need to accept that I am not an ultra con.. I just have the capacity to love them just as much as I love the ultra liberal and the capacity not judge them but to let them work out their own salvation.

Just curious, why are you so intent on disagreeing with me and others?

I am comfortable with both groups because I realized 8.5 years ago when I came back to my Father's house that my relationship with Jesus is one on one. I can't serve him for you and you cannot serve him for me.

Now... if you will just stop... not judging... PREjudging me... maybe we could have a normal conversation.

Have a good day!

Brother, I am using tv as an example, but remember this is what started the thread. You say you are for progressive methods not at the expense of salvation. What are you talking about here? Are you saying TV is a holiness standard? Just trying to understand. If that is how you feel that is ok though I totally disagree that may be your conviction and I am fine with that. But question to you is what you consider an holiness standard for you do feel they apply to me? Such as, earlier in the thread someone mentioned about not using dice because of the gambler they used to be. Do think that applies to all of us or a personal conviction? Just curious. I know there are thing that I do not do that other think is ok, but I am seen as a liberal or moderate.

I do not disagree with you just to disagree. I have my beliefs and you have yours they are contrary to each other. Remember you were the one that started with me by saying I had a "perversion of truth." I am defending myself to you though I do not need to do so. I disagree with people like CC1 on somethings too, but I do not let the difference matter. He does not like the Shockamooing preachers too much, I love them, but there is a thin line for me. I feel that you were the one just wanting to disagree with everyone. It seemed that after the Res 4 past that you came on here trying to nail people to the wall. It seemed as if you were out with a chip on your shoulder. May not be the truth, but seems so.

You are right on one thing you can not serve God for me and I can not serve Him for you. But again you did make it seem as if you were better than some because of the amount of Hell you were in before. For ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Brother, I am using tv as an example, but remember this is what started the thread. You say you are for progressive methods not at the expense of salvation. What are you talking about here? Are you saying TV is a holiness standard? Just trying to understand. If that is how you feel that is ok though I totally disagree that may be your conviction and I am fine with that. But question to you is what you consider an holiness standard for you do feel they apply to me? Such as, earlier in the thread someone mentioned about not using dice because of the gambler they used to be. Do think that applies to all of us or a personal conviction? Just curious. I know there are thing that I do not do that other think is ok, but I am seen as a liberal or moderate.

I do not disagree with you just to disagree. I have my beliefs and you have yours they are contrary to each other. Remember you were the one that started with me by saying I had a "perversion of truth." I am defending myself to you though I do not need to do so. I disagree with people like CC1 on somethings too, but I do not let the difference matter. He does not like the Shockamooing preachers too much, I love them, but there is a thin line for me. I feel that you were the one just wanting to disagree with everyone. It seemed that after the Res 4 past that you came on here trying to nail people to the wall. It seemed as if you were out with a chip on your shoulder. May not be the truth, but seems so.

You are right on one thing you can not serve God for me and I can not serve Him for you. But again you did make it seem as if you were better than some because of the amount of Hell you were in before. For ALL have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.

Bro. Tullock,

I am not sure where the disconnect is between you and me. It is amusing in a way but also tiresome. Your bias seems to be so severe that read into comments and statements what is not there... ONLY if the commenter is IN YOUR MIND a CONSERVATIVE.

When I say I am for progressive methods but not at the expense of the SALVATION MESSAGE... note Message... as a PAJC 3 stepper that is faith that brings one to repentance, baptism in Jesus name, the infilling of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues... nothing more; nothing less. I have no hidden meanings or secret codes built into my response. Acts 2:38 is the expression of the only proper response to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Brother, I am NOT UPCI... I do attend a moderate, balanced UPC assembly. I am more conservative than many of my brethren but it is not an issue because I am PERSONALLY conservative... not because of a rule book or because I think everything, including unfiltered air, is a sin. Rather I live the way I do because I choose to. I call my lifestyle WORSHIP. Anything I choose to give up or sacrifice must be worship or it is worthless. There is no benefit to me or God if I am just a rule follower. When I do the things I do that you would view as legalism, I do them as a form of worship and praise. That is how I taught my children. If it ain't worship it is works and it is worthless.

I AM NOT saying TV or Lack thereof is a holiness standard. That phrase "holiness standard" is, in my world, a misnomer. I maintain a certain lifestyle but that is because of His holiness at work in me and my desire to worship him... not some set of die cut standards that preclude the operation of the Holy Ghost in my life. Lord have mercy... some of these rule books might stop me short of what would please God for me!

I think the above comments are sufficient but to ensure that there is no room for misunderstanding, I do not live by any set of "holiness standards" therefore it would be foolish for me to expect you to follow the exact same set of nonexistent rules that I follow. Bro. Tullock... THIS IS A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST.

Now do I think there are Godly, Biblical principles that I feel you should uphold? ABSOLUTELY! Does that mean that I think you are going to go to hell because you wear a pair of shorts or a short sleeve shirt? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

The dice is a personal conviction for that individual and I respect it. In fact I was quite the craps player myself... lost many a paycheck shooting dice. But, surprise surprise surprise... I don't feel convicted if I am using dice and playing Farkle with my mom or monopoly with my kids.

I think you are mistaken on your statement that we are all that different.. except maybe in your mind.

As for resolution #4, you have your wires crossed and your meter is reading that which is not there. I DID participate in some discussions about how long will it take for the UPC to move away from their traditional standards. I stated my opinion that the loss of the more traditional, conservative men would escalate a move that was already happening. You can go read my comments on the other thread. I will stand by them as my opinion.

Brother, do I have a problem with some of your positions? More than likely I do. But the real problem I have with you is that you are so focused on EVERYONE NOT LIKE YOU being a LEGALIST and an ELITIST! You have beat that horse until all you are hitting is dirt.. there isn't a horse left! It gets tiresome... especially when you are so intolerant of others and name call and rebuke but can't take it in return.

You really need to go back and find my posts and read the entire body of work and then find where. in this thread I questioned your salvation experience, stated that you didn't have anything, stated that I was better than you or anyone else because my pit was deeper than yours. To say that I said any of those things is false. I DID NOT! Nor did I imply it. Any implication was totally in your mind and in your patent defensive posture!

i am as fair and balanced a man as you will find. I am comfortable in company of liberals and mods.. cons and ultra cons. They do not determine my relationship with God or lack thereof. I can worship with any of them because they are not the object of my worship.

i don't know if I can be any clear, Brother! I have NEVER judged you.. I have judged some of your behavior just as you have judged mine and others. The difference is that I don't run around calling you a closet sinner and you seem quite comfortable judging everyone else as legalists and elitists.

Se la vie!

I really am done with this now!

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

Yes and the original article was pretty good too. PP never "commented 'though, but I did appreciate yours BTW. :sshhh

Brother Griffin,

The article is definitely very well written.

I agree with your assessment that "devolution" is occuring, but let me give you a different take on the phenomenon, and why I think it is happening. I will attempt to use the same lingo you used in the article from NCO.

It is my opinion that devolution is not always negative. Sometimes fragmentation occurs due to irreconcilable differences arising when leaders of a centralized social or religious group enact ordinances that smack of oppressive tyranny. Men and women will always seek personal liberty which, of course, leads to many splinter groups breaking off from the original religious, political, or social power.

I do not believe it was ever God's plan to have a Vatican type model of church government. I do not believe it was ever God's plan to have a centralized seat of Christian power on earth that was led by a man, or group of men.

Instead, I believe that God scattered (through Roman persecution) early Christians to the four corners of the earth to combat such a religious system. We men are great at messing up the simplicity of God's plan. We ministers tend to want to be mediators between God and man, when He really doesn't need our help. All he wants us to do is "go" and "preach."

I believe what you are hoping for is ecumenicalism. It is clear the NCO is willing to set aside every bit of core doctrine for some misguided sense of Christian unity. I can't for a moment believe that God is pleased.

Further, you seem to play off of the UPC's current fragmentation, mentioning it on the front page of your website. What is your goal in doing so? Why does the NCO need to slap at us? This is contrary to the spirit of your article, in which you state a desire for unity and ecumenicalism.

I feel your article, and past blogs on the NCO site, is in poor taste, and not befitting model Christian motives. After all, isn't the NCO a splinter group?

[mizpeh]

PP,

How deeply have you thought out church organization? What do you think is God's original design? And do you think the UPC is similar to a Vatican type model of church government?

I do not believe it was ever God's plan to have a Vatican type model of church government. I do not believe it was ever God's plan to have a centralized seat of Christian power on earth that was led by a man, or group of men.

Instead, I believe that God scattered (through Roman persecution) early Christians to the four corners of the earth to combat such a religious system. We men are great at messing up the simplicity of God's plan. We ministers tend to want to be mediators between God and man, when He really doesn't need our help. All he wants us to do is "go" and "preach."

I believe what you are hoping for is ecumenicalism.

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by philjones

Bro. Tullock,

I am not sure where the disconnect is between you and me. It is amusing in a way but also tiresome. Your bias seems to be so severe that read into comments and statements what is not there... ONLY if the commenter is IN YOUR MIND a CONSERVATIVE.

When I say I am for progressive methods but not at the expense of the SALVATION MESSAGE... note Message... as a PAJC 3 stepper that is faith that brings one to repentance, baptism in Jesus name, the infilling of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues... nothing more; nothing less. I have no hidden meanings or secret codes built into my response. Acts 2:38 is the expression of the only proper response to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Brother in your post about the not risking salvation you never said the word "MESSAGE." That is why I ask the question for a definition. IF you are not want to risk the salvation message then who could you unless you changed the D,B,and R of Jesus is that not the salvation message? As you said Acts 2:38 is our response to that message. Not arguing just asking.

Originally Posted by philjones

Brother, I am NOT UPCI... I do attend a moderate, balanced UPC assembly. I am more conservative than many of my brethren but it is not an issue because I am PERSONALLY conservative... not because of a rule book or because I think everything, including unfiltered air, is a sin. Rather I live the way I do because I choose to. I call my lifestyle WORSHIP. Anything I choose to give up or sacrifice must be worship or it is worthless. There is no benefit to me or God if I am just a rule follower. When I do the things I do that you would view as legalism, I do them as a form of worship and praise. That is how I taught my children. If it ain't worship it is works and it is worthless.

I AM NOT saying TV or Lack thereof is a holiness standard. That phrase "holiness standard" is, in my world, a misnomer. I maintain a certain lifestyle but that is because of His holiness at work in me and my desire to worship him... not some set of die cut standards that preclude the operation of the Holy Ghost in my life. Lord have mercy... some of these rule books might stop me short of what would please God for me!

I think the above comments are sufficient but to ensure that there is no room for misunderstanding, I do not live by any set of "holiness standards" therefore it would be foolish for me to expect you to follow the exact same set of nonexistent rules that I follow. Bro. Tullock... THIS IS A PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS CHRIST.

Now do I think there are Godly, Biblical principles that I feel you should uphold? ABSOLUTELY! Does that mean that I think you are going to go to hell because you wear a pair of shorts or a short sleeve shirt? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

The dice is a personal conviction for that individual and I respect it. In fact I was quite the craps player myself... lost many a paycheck shooting dice. But, surprise surprise surprise... I don't feel convicted if I am using dice and playing Farkle with my mom or monopoly with my kids.

I think you are mistaken on your statement that we are all that different.. except maybe in your mind.

As for resolution #4, you have your wires crossed and your meter is reading that which is not there. I DID participate in some discussions about how long will it take for the UPC to move away from their traditional standards. I stated my opinion that the loss of the more traditional, conservative men would escalate a move that was already happening. You can go read my comments on the other thread. I will stand by them as my opinion.

Brother, do I have a problem with some of your positions? More than likely I do. But the real problem I have with you is that you are so focused on EVERYONE NOT LIKE YOU being a LEGALIST and an ELITIST! You have beat that horse until all you are hitting is dirt.. there isn't a horse left! It gets tiresome... especially when you are so intolerant of others and name call and rebuke but can't take it in return.

You really need to go back and find my posts and read the entire body of work and then find where. in this thread I questioned your salvation experience, stated that you didn't have anything, stated that I was better than you or anyone else because my pit was deeper than yours. To say that I said any of those things is false. I DID NOT! Nor did I imply it. Any implication was totally in your mind and in your patent defensive posture!

i am as fair and balanced a man as you will find. I am comfortable in company of liberals and mods.. cons and ultra cons. They do not determine my relationship with God or lack thereof. I can worship with any of them because they are not the object of my worship.

i don't know if I can be any clear, Brother! I have NEVER judged you.. I have judged some of your behavior just as you have judged mine and others. The difference is that I don't run around calling you a closet sinner and you seem quite comfortable judging everyone else as legalists and elitists.

Se la vie!

I really am done with this now!

I do not consider myself and elitist or legalist. Neither do you. The truth is under your definition I am and under my definition is that you are. So I think maybe we are both wrong. It seems as if we are looking at the same thing but from a different point of view.

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

PP,

How deeply have you thought out church organization? What do you think is God's original design? And do you think the UPC is similar to a Vatican type model of church government?

Church organization is biblical, religious organization is not.

I have no problem submitting to SPIRITUAL authority. It is Pharisaical legalism, masked with false concern for church purity that I despise.

Mizpeh, this topic has been on my mind a lot of late, but I do not care to discuss the UPC right now.

God's original design was for the church to be a living organism, not a dusty sanctuary that is cold and uninviting.

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Brother in your post about the not risking salvation you never said the word "MESSAGE." That is why I ask the question for a definition. IF you are not want to risk the salvation message then who could you unless you changed the D,B,and R of Jesus is that not the salvation message? As you said Acts 2:38 is our response to that message. Not arguing just asking.



I do not consider myself and elitist or legalist. Neither do you. The truth is under your definition I am and under my definition is that you are. So I think maybe we are both wrong. It seems as if we are looking at the same thing but from a different point of view.

Brother,

You are too argumentative... you are correct.. I did not say "salvation message" I DID say "doctrine of salvation" which is the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ which is the gospel of Jesus Christ. What i DID NOT say was simply at the expense of salvation. Salvation message and doctrine of salvation are synonymous in my mind... perhaps not in yours.

And you are finally getting it I think... Some people are willing to compromise the message of Acts 2 in an effort to be progressive. That is where I draw the line.

Have a wonderful evening...

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Church organization is biblical, religious organization is not.

I have no problem submitting to SPIRITUAL authority. It is Pharisaical legalism, masked with false concern for church purity that I despise.

Mizpeh, this topic has been on my mind a lot of late, but I do not care to discuss the UPC right now.

God's original design was for the church to be a living organism, not a dusty sanctuary that is cold and uninviting.

What do you make of Acts 6 and James 1: 26-27 in light of the your posted in the bold?