Water baptism, can you agree with this statement?

[Sherri]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

OK I voted YES.

The idea that a new believer in Jesus is damned because he expires before baptism is strange to me. The redemption is that of the inner man.

Having said that... I believe Baptism is the first thing a new believer does - in bold profession of his newfound faith. The concept of taking classes or delaying baptism until a certain date, or an annual "Baptismal", is foreign to scripture.

I agree. Although our churches in Kenya are forced to have baptisms only once or twice a year because they have to rent a swimming pool and it's very expensive. I would love to be able to get them a concrete baptistry. They could go to a river, but they are infested and very dangerous.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Ok here is a question can one be regenerated without having the Holy Ghost ?
Is there a Bible difference in receiving and being baptized with the Holy Ghost ?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

OK I voted YES.

The idea that a new believer in Jesus is damned because he expires before baptism is strange to me. The redemption is that of the inner man.

Having said that... I believe Baptism is the first thing a new believer does - in bold profession of his newfound faith. The concept of taking classes or delaying baptism until a certain date, or an annual "Baptismal", is foreign to scripture.

Yes ... newly "saved" believers do this at the very start.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Sherri

I agree. Although our churches in Kenya are forced to have baptisms only once or twice a year because they have to rent a swimming pool and it's very expensive. I would love to be able to get them a concrete baptistry. They could go to a river, but they are infested and very dangerous.

Vote yes please.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

If you think anyone here is arguing against obedience ... YOU STILL DON'T GET IT as doesn't TBP... and are very disingenuous in stating that I and others on this board are advocating DISOBEDIENCE.

PCIers from Goss on down ... believe that baptism is to be obeyed ... as an initial step ...

but unfortunately until this day friend you haven't captured the dynamics of this debate ...

we are looking at what happens at baptism ... what it signifies

and the when and how of the New Birth....

One day it will click .

Bump for EASTY.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Yes ... newly "saved" believers do this at the very start.

Agreed.

[Encryptus]

Originally Posted by BrotherEastman

No, I'm saying once for obedience.

But if the blood is applied at baptism, and the blood in applied three times.

Lord dunk
Jesus dunk
Christ dunk

Pity the poor man whose pastor loses count! Only 2/3 saved

[Scott Hutchinson]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

Ok here is a question can one be regenerated without having the Holy Ghost ?
Is there a Bible difference in receiving and being baptized with the Holy Ghost ?

Anybody wanna take a stab at this one ?

[Encryptus]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

According to the Sacramentalist Baptismal Regenerationist ... baptism remits/washes away/blots out sin ....

While the sins are forgiven at repentance .... the old man ... body of sin ... is still hanging out ... like a growth... that only a properly administered water baptism can circumcise ...

it's base on faulty reasoning of what circumcision means throughout scripture and poor hermeneutics and understanding of Colossians 2:11-12

One writer refutes this false teaching as follows.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False...eg-refuted.htm

In Col. 2:11-12, we read, "In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him, through faith in the working of God who raised Him from the dead"

In the Old Testament, circumcision was the sign of the Abrahamic Covenant. It was a minor surgical operation that involved the cutting away of the flesh. Circumcision symbolized death to the flesh by the "cutting away of sins", so in New Testament symbolism, it refers to spiritual circumcision. "Made without hands" meant that no human effort was involved, rather, it is God's work The circumcision refers to His death, meaning when one believes their sin is cut off. It also relates to Christ's death which He Himself called a "baptism". This term did not mean a water baptism, but one of death and burial (Romans 2:29): "Circumcision is that of the heart in the Spirit, not in the letter. . .", which the ceremony of baptism depicts. The Bible clearly teaches that circumcision is a work of the Spirit which circumcises since it is God’s work. This spiritual circumcision is the invisible work that baptism symbolizes.

Again, baptism points back to the work of Christ since it is the circumcision of Christ (not baptism) that achieves this for a believer. (In the same way, Rom. 6 refers to describing the occurrence of the Gospel.)

In the New Testament, we find that baptism is the sign or seal of the New Covenant, and functions like a substitute for circumcision of the Old Covenant. For the Abrahamic Covenant (Gen. 17:21) it was mandatory. Under the Mosaic Covenant (Ex. 12:48), it was to show submission to the Law of Moses. Christ commissioned His disciples to go, teach, make disciples, and baptize. Just as circumcision was required of proselytes converting to Judaism, in a like manner, baptism was required as a visible mark of entrance into the New Covenant.

These two rites have similar meanings. Circumcision was characterized by a cutting away of sin and a change of heart. Baptism is a picture of the washing away of sin.

"Baptism did away with the need for circumcision because it signified the union of the believer with Christ, thereby cutting off the old nature. A lesser circumcision has been replaced by a greater circumcision. The spiritual circumcision promised under the Old Testament Covenant has become a reality under the New Covenant through baptism". (George BeasIey-Murray, Baptism in the New Testament).

Again, baptism is only a visible symbol of what occurred by the previous reality, which is the real substance. It points back to Christ.


---------------------------------------------

What my sacramentalist brethren don't realize is that their Catholic forefathers concur with their position:

Cyril of Jerusalem

[QUOTEAmbrose of Milan


"Although we are baptized with water and the Spirit, the latter is much superior to the former, and is not therefore to be separated from the Father and the Son. There are, however, many who, because we are baptized with water and the Spirit, think that there is no difference in the offices of water and the Spirit, and therefore think that they do not differ in nature. Nor do they observe that we are buried in the element of water that we may rise again renewed by the Spirit. For in the water is the representation of death, in the Spirit is the pledge of life, that the body of sin may die through the water, which encloses the body as it were in a kind of tomb, that we, by the power of the Spirit, may be renewed from the death of sin, being born again in God" (The Holy Spirit 1:6[75–76] [A.D. 381]).

[/QUOTE]

Interesting. For what it's worth when the Jews have a gentile proselyte they circumcise them first and then baptize them by immersion.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Scott Hutchinson

Anybody wanna take a stab at this one ?

Not on this thread. It is specific to the opening question.