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  #11  
Old 10-03-2007, 11:07 AM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Roc View Post
I think that is Dan's underlying intent.
If truth is his intent then go to the Bible not to what the PCI or PAJC taught. I understand him to be going back to what the early leaders of Pentecost in this country taught as truth.
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  #12  
Old 10-03-2007, 11:07 AM
philjones
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Originally Posted by J-Roc View Post
I think that is Dan's underlying intent.
Actually, Dan is no different than those he opposes. Buy your version of the truth and sell it not.
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  #13  
Old 10-03-2007, 11:15 AM
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J-Roc J-Roc is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
If truth is his intent then go to the Bible not to what the PCI or PAJC taught. I understand him to be going back to what the early leaders of Pentecost in this country taught as truth.

Mizpeh, it's all about context. There are plenty of threads where Dan has debated theology and he deals with truth with regards to biblical teachings.

The context here is regarding the truth of history...he claims information has been sanitized with regards to PCI/PAJC apostolic history.

In real estate, they say "Location, location, location"

Here, the slogan is "Context, context, context"

Let's keep our eye on the ball and our head in the game...focus.
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  #14  
Old 10-03-2007, 11:25 AM
Rev Dooley
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Well, Dan you have again posted another masterpiece of personal and somewhat fictional belief.
Good job!
NI
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  #15  
Old 10-03-2007, 01:18 PM
SDG SDG is offline
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Originally Posted by NobodyImportant View Post
Well, Dan you have again posted another masterpiece of personal and somewhat fictional belief.
Good job!
NI
So who are you really?
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  #16  
Old 10-03-2007, 03:58 PM
SDG SDG is offline
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bump.
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  #17  
Old 10-03-2007, 06:55 PM
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Jack Shephard Jack Shephard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by philjones View Post
Actually, Dan is no different than those he opposes. Buy your version of the truth and sell it not.
I knew you could not stay away from this. This is up your alley here. Like white on rice you are all over this. Good to see ya!
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  #18  
Old 10-03-2007, 06:58 PM
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Jack Shephard Jack Shephard is offline
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Dan, you have made this PCIer proud. I was raise a PAJCer, but after carefully reading the Bible and praying over it I see it differently. I am firm on what I believe. You gotta repent and be baptized, but why would you want to go to heaven without the HGB? I got it. I want all to have it.
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  #19  
Old 10-03-2007, 07:17 PM
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BrotherEastman BrotherEastman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
I for one am a little weary of the attempts by some on the forum who claim heritage w/ the original PAJCers and 3 steppers of yesteryear.

Yet, I am thankful for internet forums that allow truth to be spoken.

For about 2 to 3 generations, we know that men of diverse beliefs on the idea of New Birth tried to fellowship and co-exist under a noble experiment and failed primarily when they were forced to leave the UPCI in the 1990's.

Although the same Fundamental Doctrine that asked both sides to not contend for the disunity of the faith ... and is touted by today's posers as part of the AS that ALL MINISTERS MUST ADHERE TO ... was ignored by hate-filled radicals, almost from the fellowship's inception, and by those who have remained in this presently waning fellowship.

Yes, the merger sought to unite a group of primarily white Oneness preachers under Acts 2:38. The fact is the only thing these men had in common was their shared belief of the Godhead and performing baptism in Jesus name. As to the significance of Acts 2:38 and the New Birth they differed greatly.

Shamefully, today those who rewrite and skew our history leave out important components of our shared Apostolic Oneness history while lifting the banner of our Acts 2:38 heritage.

As a person who was raised in the Oneness Apostolic movement I know the emphasis put on the idea of Heritage ...

it is a value reified by the culture.

It is harped on from pulpits ... it is a central theme of many conferences ... and is a focal point of a lot of the literature I've read since my childhood.

History is presented as to scaffold this value of 3-step Holiness Apostolic heritage and used to validate their existence and the extra-biblical truths held by many.

Just early this year, A Mangun stepped up before those at BOTT 2007 ... making his famous/infamous remarks in support of television advertising ... and as part of his presentation he sought to use photos of his dad ... and persuaded the crowd that he was still TRUE TO HIS HERITAGE.

The heritage badge is arrogantly worn by the radicalized Ultracon zealots who use snippets of skewed history to validate their heritage and make themselves victims of the schism of the early Pentecostal movement called the "New Issue".

Today's PCI Oneness Apostolic compromisers and charismatics are belittled as not being true or embarrassed of their heritage ... and even MUSH.

What is bothersome and disingenous in all of this is that those who glorify and champion their heritage ... while playing the victim and stating they monopolize ALL TRUTH ....

fail to realize that in their zeal to revise history books AND present the truth... they are the one's not true to the heritage ... our history truly reveals.

The truth is ... that the early Oneness pioneer GIANTS like Haywood, Urshan, Goss, Clyde Haney ... and most others never considered Trinitarians as lost ... fellowshipped with them regularly ... preached in their events and had them preach in their own.

Facts show that PCI men like Goss and Small even started fellowships w/ Trinitarians in an effort to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as evident w/ the early formation of the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World.

Even the General Assemblies, circa 1918, here in the States allow for Trinitarians and Oneness believers to shortly co-exist with the New Issue not being a centerpoint.

Yet, by 1925-30 ... and attempt to create solely Oneness Apostolic entities was marked by some success but also fragmentation and division ... the latter is still w/ us today.

Apostolic whites and blacks chose to divide over racial lines.

When the UPCI formed the real radical zealot 3 -steppers stayed w/ the real PAJC as not to fellowship w/ those "weak on doctrine"

Even from the onset of the UPCI merger, criticisms abounded when Goss, a one-stepper took office as the first General Supt. of the newly formed UPCI the radicals chose to take him out of office because of his "weakness" ... succeeding in the early 50's. This is the same one-stepping Howard Goss, that believed BAPTISTS WERE SAVED.

The org continued to remain somewhat unified throughout the 50's to 70's suffering various schisms ... and then the radical zealots rose up again in the 1970's when questions of which New Birth doctrine was being preached overseas, namely Colombia, and successively add "full" salvation to the Fundamental Doctrine.

In 1990, the 3 step radicals finally succeeded in doing away w/ the one steppers w/ the passing of the Westburg resolution and the institution of the Affirmation Statement.

Those of the Oneness 1 step persuasion realized that co-existence w/ a group that seek disfellowship rather than fellowship were shown the door ....

With the post AS schism of the 1990's, many of these 2cd/3rd generation one-stepping Apostolics had no problems joining w/ Trinitarians in fellowships like Global Network. Why? Because they realized that most of the radicalized 3 steppers would never consider them as truly brethren.
The facts are plain ... 2cd and 3rd generation PCIers, especially from Ten. and Canada can tell you ... the stories of what really happened during the noble failed experiment. Once again, history paints a truly different picture than those zealouts who are far removed from the hetitage of the past.

Today the new "Heritage" posers claim unity in purpose and direction w/ the PCIers and PAJCers of the past... yet they still seek to disfellowship and berate their views and doctrine TODAY.

Ironically, today this spirit of disunity has ripped the UPCI again. The very AS that sought doctrinal purity is pushing the ultra-radicals out.

In conclusion, facts show that the early PCIers and PAJCers had very different views with those who will not consider Trinitarians as saved and will not fellowship w/ those who look, dress, act and believe like them.

This is in sharp contrast, several generations later. ... of a radicalized element within our Oneness ranks that through propaganda and lack of scholarship have whitewashed our history and true heritage while disfellowshipping even eating their own]their own without abandon.

Is truth limited to repeating the mantra of Acts 2:38 ... presenting soteriological and Christological views? Are we not to be truthful in all things ... such as our history and applicatation of bible-based holiness principle?

Those who drumbeat heritage are nominally Apostolics ...

To misquote my friend Ferd ...

"there is a very big difference between what is the new fangled PAJC and what was the light PAJC view of old."


Yes, both sides have evolved ... with 3 steppers making their circles smaller and smaller ... with continued in-fighting among each other ...

while PCIers have returned to their roots of open fellowship and seeking unity w/ the entire Body of Christ.

But I still love the posers.
Sources please. Or is this your opinion stated like a fact?
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  #20  
Old 10-03-2007, 08:29 PM
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RevBuddy RevBuddy is offline
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Excellent thoughts, Dan!

It is so interesting that there is a general disbelief in "evolution" among Apostolics, and yet, many insist on creating an Apostolic historical heritage that has certainly "evolved" over the late decades of the 20th century.

Within our movement, there is a well-thought out departure from earlier reality. For the most part, today's church, whether minister or saint, has no knowledge or insight into the early 20th century Apostolics, their doctrinal positions or their careful habit of preferring brotherhood and fellowship to particular, personal analysis of the Godhead or specific interpretations of the Scriptures.

This is not to say that they did not hold doctrinal truths and absolutes. They most definitely did! However, they were neither held nor argued to the detriment of brotherly love and continuing fellowship.

Surely, they can teach us a tremendous lesson in this approach...alas, only if we would listen more carefully..

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