Forgiveness prior to baptism

[ChristopherHall]

I think there may be confusion regarding this issue because of a neglect for specific doctrines that are taught in Scripture. Here's the break down as I understand it:

Justification: When one repents they are justified by faith before God based upon the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Being justified they can now come forward and receive Regeneration and Adoption.

Regeneration: Once one has repented of sins and has been justified before God they may now receive the Holy Ghost which begins the spiritual process known as regeneration. The believer's spirit is now given new life through the Power of the Holy Ghost.

Adoption: This takes place when the believer is baptized in Jesus name. By taking upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ through baptism they now become children of God. Baptism can be likened unto a covenantal step of obedience such as circumcision.

Sanctification: This is a life long process of perfecting holiness that begins at repentance and ends when the Lord calls the believer home.

The question has consistantly argued regarding at what point are sins remitted...when one repents or when one is baptized? The truth is both. One's sins cannot be remitted until they have both repented and been baptized. The entire process (repentance, water baptism, and infilling of the Holy Ghost) is interconnected and is vitally necessary for salvation.

To be saved one must:

Repent (be justified), be water baptized in Jesus name (adopted), receive the Holy Ghost (be regenerated), and live a life of holiness Christian disciplines (be sanctified).

All are absolutely essential.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Adino

A post exploring the reception of sin remission at the conversion of man's heart in repentance prior to water baptism:

The idea that forgiveness of sins is received at repentance permeates the NT. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John each make the point that forgiveness is received at repentance by quoting from Isaiah 6:10.

Isaiah 6:10

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

To understand with the heart and “convert” in Isaiah 6:10 meant to “return to God in faith” or to “repent”. To “be healed” meant to be “made whole” or to be “made free from error or sin.” It meant to be forgiven.

Isaiah 6:10

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert (i.e., repent), and be healed (i.e., forgiven).

Those who repented would be forgiven.

Matthew 13:15

For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal (i.e., forgive) them.

See also Mark 4:11-12 (which uses “forgiven”); John 12:37-40; and Acts 28:23-29.

To authors Matthew, Mark, Luke (in Acts), and John, “the heart” turning back to God in repentance brought healing / forgiveness.

Acts 3:19

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Forgiveness is received when the repenting heart converts to faith in Christ.

Luke 24:47

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

The phrase “repentance and remission of sins” in the Nestle Aland Greek version of Luke 24:47 is “metanoia eis aphesis” which is everywhere else interpreted “repentance FOR (EIS) the remission of sins.”

Mark 1:4

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for (eis) the remission of sins.

Luke 3:3

And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for (eis) the remission of sins;

John’s baptism pointed to repentance which was FOR the remission of sins.

There is strong evidence to suggest that Luke 24:47 teaches that “repentance FOR (EIS) the remission of sins” was to be preached through faith in the name of Jesus!

Acts 10:43

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

The repenting heart returning to God via faith in Jesus Christ absolutely SHALL receive the remission / forgiveness of sins.

I agreed with almost everything you said up until this point.

Acts 2:38 supports this conclusion when you realize that the word “repent” is written in the 2nd person plural, the phrase “be baptized” in the 3rd person singular, and the phrase “for the remission of sins” again in the 2nd person plural.

It is grammatically sound to realize that the 2nd person plural phrases are connected while the insertion of a 3rd person singular phrase is parenthetical. Meaning, sin remission is to be connected to repentance and not to water baptism. Baptism becomes a parenthetical insertion as that which points to the forgiveness received when the repenting heart converts to faith in God through Jesus Christ.

If “EIS” is to be accepted as causal in meaning (i.e. “in order to obtain”) then we have John the Baptist (Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3), Jesus Christ (Luke 24:47), and Peter (Acts 2:38; Acts 3:19) teaching that man was to repent EIS (in order to obtain) the remission of sins.

Thus, forgiveness is received prior to baptism when the repenting heart converts to faith in God through Christ. Water baptism only points to this internal reality after the fact. The conscience made good before God prior to baptism is declared in baptism.

Your thoughts...

Here's an interesting response to your Greek explanation:


In the first place, if Peter had any intention of separating "repent" from "be baptized", then he wouldn't have joined them both with the word AND. As far as the grammar goes, let's look at this verse and see what's going on here:

In English, we don't use many endings on our verbs. We add an '-s' or an '-es' to our third person singular verbs (I.E. I go, but he goes) and put an -ed on our regular past tense verbs (I.E. today I look, yesterday I looked), but that's about it. In many other languages, however, the system of endings is much more involved. Your verb endings have to be singular or plural to match their subjects, and Greek is no exception.

Peter was speaking to a group of people, so naturally, the word REPENT metanohsate (μετανοη'σατε) in Greek is plural. However, when he said "and be baptized", he added the words "every ONE of you". The Greek word for "every ONE" used here is hekastos ('έκαστος), and it naturally requires a singular form of the verb in Greek, since "every ONE" is singular, but the "of YOU" that immediately follows it is plural again! The "be baptized" part is only singular because Peter make a point of saying "every ONE" of you...it's simply a grammatical convention to use a singular verb with a singular noun, with no separation of commands intended or implied whatsoever. Zip, zilch, NADA!

Those of you who speak Spanish can plainly see this in the way Acts 2:38 is translated in the Spanish Bible, for it's handled exactly the same: we say "arrepentíos (plural) y bautícese cada uno (singular because "cada uno" is singular) DE VOSOTROS (back to plural again) para (notice--not "por") perdón de los pecados...." The "bautícese" part is singular only because cada UNO is singular---NOT because Peter was attempting to separate "be bapitzed" from "repent" and "forgiveness", using a singular verb so you'd jump over one section of what he said and link up with another. The writer of Acts (Luke) was simply using grammatically correct Greek!

To imply that Peter was tying repent and forgiveness together by some intentional grammatical link between repent and forgiveness, and that he was excluding baptism by using a singular verb with the "be baptized" part is so ludocrous and ridiculous that I'm practically standing mouth agape to think people would resort to this level of extremes in their process of grabbing for straws. I mean, really...is this the best they can do? Even a child can understand that "every ONE of you" is singular, and that it's the subject of the command "be baptized"--and even a child can understand that the word AND joins "repent" and "be baptized". You don't even have to look at the Greek to see that. http://www.goodnewscafe.net/forums/s...&postcount=264

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by ChristopherHall

I think there may be confusion regarding this issue because of a neglect for specific doctrines that are taught in Scripture. Here's the break down as I understand it:

Justification: When one repents they are justified by faith before God based upon the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Being justified they can now come forward and receive Regeneration and Adoption.

Regeneration: Once one has repented of sins and has been justified before God they may now receive the Holy Ghost which begins the spiritual process known as regeneration. The believer's spirit is now given new life through the Power of the Holy Ghost.

Adoption: This takes place when the believer is baptized in Jesus name. By taking upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ through baptism they now become children of God. Baptism can be likened unto a covenantal step of obedience such as circumcision.

Sanctification: This is a life long process of perfecting holiness that begins at repentance and ends when the Lord calls the believer home.

The question has consistantly argued regarding at what point are sins remitted...when one repents or when one is baptized? The truth is both. One's sins cannot be remitted until they have both repented and been baptized. The entire process (repentance, water baptism, and infilling of the Holy Ghost) is interconnected and is vitally necessary for salvation.

To be saved one must:

Repent (be justified), be water baptized in Jesus name (adopted), receive the Holy Ghost (be regenerated), and live a life of holiness Christian disciplines (be sanctified).

All are absolutely essential.

Where did you get your definitions?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Adino

When it is realized that Luke 24:47 very likely refers to preaching "repentance FOR the remission of sins" in Jesus' name, this passage can be used to further define Acts 2:38 and the relation of sin remission to repentance taught in it.

This is where it gets difficult because of the texts that are used and the disagreements on which is better expecially when the texts diverge as in this passage. The TR (Textus Receptus) and MT (Majority Text) agree and use 'kai' instead of 'eis' like the CT (Critical Text).


Textus Receptus

Luk 24:47 και And 2532 CONJ κηρυχθηναι should be preached 2784 V-APN επι in 1909 PREP τω 3588 T-DSN ονοματι name 3686 N-DSN αυτου his 846 P-GSM μετανοιαν that repentance 3341 N-ASF και and 2532 CONJ αφεσιν remission 859 N-ASF αμαρτιων of sins 266 N-GPF εις among 1519 PREP παντα all 3956 A-APN τα 3588 T-APN εθνη nations 1484 N-APN αρξαμενον beginning 756 V-AMP-NSN απο at 575 PREP ιερουσαλημ Jerusalem. 2419 N-PRI


Majority Text

Luk 24:47 καὶ κηρυχθῆναι ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι αὐτοῦ μετάνοιαν καὶ ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν εἰς πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, ἀρξάμενον ἀπὸ ῾Ιερουσαλήμ.

[Hesetmefree238]

The very fact that God fills people with the Holy Ghost before they are baptized in Jesus name testifies to the fact that one is forgiven at repentance. God would not fill a person with his Spirit if He still held their
sins against them!

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Hesetmefree238

The very fact that God fills people with the Holy Ghost before they are baptized in Jesus name testifies to the fact that one is forgiven at repentance. God would not fill a person with his Spirit if He still held their sins against them!

Precisely, but this reality is ignored by many on this forum and in Oneness Pentecostalism in general.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

This is where it gets difficult because of the texts that are used and the disagreements on which is better expecially when the texts diverge as in this passage. The TR (Textus Receptus) and MT (Majority Text) agree and use 'kai' instead of 'eis' like the CT (Critical Text).


Textus Receptus

Luk 24:47 και And 2532 CONJ κηρυχθηναι should be preached 2784 V-APN επι in 1909 PREP τω 3588 T-DSN ονοματι name 3686 N-DSN αυτου his 846 P-GSM μετανοιαν that repentance 3341 N-ASF και and 2532 CONJ αφεσιν remission 859 N-ASF αμαρτιων of sins 266 N-GPF εις among 1519 PREP παντα all 3956 A-APN τα 3588 T-APN εθνη nations 1484 N-APN αρξαμενον beginning 756 V-AMP-NSN απο at 575 PREP ιερουσαλημ Jerusalem. 2419 N-PRI


Majority Text

Luk 24:47 καὶ κηρυχθῆναι ἐπὶ τῷ ὀνόματι αὐτοῦ μετάνοιαν καὶ ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν εἰς πάντα τὰ ἔθνη, ἀρξάμενον ἀπὸ ῾Ιερουσαλήμ.

Completely, understood, Mizpeh.... which is why I made it a point to direct attention to the other places in Scripture where the phrase is "repentance EIS remission of sins." My question is more why the Nestle Aland text chose to remain consistent on the relation between repentance and forgiveness when the others did not.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I agreed with almost everything you said up until this point.

Here's an interesting response to your Greek explanation:


In the first place, if Peter had any intention of separating "repent" from "be baptized", then he wouldn't have joined them both with the word AND. As far as the grammar goes, let's look at this verse and see what's going on here:

In English, we don't use many endings on our verbs. We add an '-s' or an '-es' to our third person singular verbs (I.E. I go, but he goes) and put an -ed on our regular past tense verbs (I.E. today I look, yesterday I looked), but that's about it. In many other languages, however, the system of endings is much more involved. Your verb endings have to be singular or plural to match their subjects, and Greek is no exception.

Peter was speaking to a group of people, so naturally, the word REPENT metanohsate (μετανοη'σατε) in Greek is plural. However, when he said "and be baptized", he added the words "every ONE of you". The Greek word for "every ONE" used here is hekastos ('έκαστος), and it naturally requires a singular form of the verb in Greek, since "every ONE" is singular, but the "of YOU" that immediately follows it is plural again! The "be baptized" part is only singular because Peter make a point of saying "every ONE" of you...it's simply a grammatical convention to use a singular verb with a singular noun, with no separation of commands intended or implied whatsoever. Zip, zilch, NADA!

Those of you who speak Spanish can plainly see this in the way Acts 2:38 is translated in the Spanish Bible, for it's handled exactly the same: we say "arrepentíos (plural) y bautícese cada uno (singular because "cada uno" is singular) DE VOSOTROS (back to plural again) para (notice--not "por") perdón de los pecados...." The "bautícese" part is singular only because cada UNO is singular---NOT because Peter was attempting to separate "be bapitzed" from "repent" and "forgiveness", using a singular verb so you'd jump over one section of what he said and link up with another. The writer of Acts (Luke) was simply using grammatically correct Greek!

To imply that Peter was tying repent and forgiveness together by some intentional grammatical link between repent and forgiveness, and that he was excluding baptism by using a singular verb with the "be baptized" part is so ludocrous and ridiculous that I'm practically standing mouth agape to think people would resort to this level of extremes in their process of grabbing for straws. I mean, really...is this the best they can do? Even a child can understand that "every ONE of you" is singular, and that it's the subject of the command "be baptized"--and even a child can understand that the word AND joins "repent" and "be baptized". You don't even have to look at the Greek to see that. http://www.goodnewscafe.net/forums/s...&postcount=264

Your post does not prove the approach as implausible. In fact, Beisner raised the same 2nd person plural vs 3rd person singular argument to Urshan and Sabin on the Ankerburg show with Walter Martin and the point went unanswered. Beisner makes the point that Greek grammatical structure does not always follow the structural sequence we are accustomed to. The parenthetical insertion of baptism is certainly one way of looking at the verse.

Time and time again forgiveness is connected to repentance in Scripture. Repentance was FOR the remission of sins. Baptism was UNTO repentance. Baptism pointed to repentance and the spiritual realities which came in repentance. Baptism did not CAUSE these spiritual realities to exist. Too many passages speak of the conversion which brings forgiveness and righteousness as being "one of the heart." You said you agreed with this part of my first post, but apparently you do not.

Another issue with connecting the 3rd person singular "be baptized everyone of you" to the 2nd person plural "for the remission [of your] sins" is that it would mean that each individual was to be baptized for the remission of the groups sins.

All of you repent and let each of you be baptized for the remission of all of your [group] sins.

This is simply so "ludocrous [sic] and ridiculous that I'm practically standing mouth agape to think people would resort to this level of extremes in their process of grabbing for straws."

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by Brother Price

DM, so one can be saved, but not go to Heaven?

Yes....

I might get my second warning from this answer but YES, it is possible to be saved and not go to heaven.

But then, from reading much of what is written on these forums, it appears to me that few people really understand what the word "saved" means. Seldom have I read so much ignorance.

The word saved means "delivered." I've seen many people that simply believed the Gospel, confessed their sins and were (delivered) saved (Gr. Sozo) from the power and load of sin as it rolled away at a tearful altar in many Baptist churches and other denominational churches in deep prayer and contrition from a life of sin.

My mother was a strong Apostolic woman. She said that she was "saved," in the Baptist church in 1932 when she was only 14 years old. Though very kind and sweet, she would have thought anyone a nut-ball lunatic if they were to try to convince her that she never experience the joy of deliverance (sozo) from sin when kneeling there so long ago.

My Grandmother was saved (delivered, sozo) from the power of sin in an old time shouting Methodist church. You could have never convinced her that she did not experience the load and power of sin lifted off of her burdened soul.

This one will probably get me banned. If so, I've enjoyed talking with you all.

[Joelel]

Remission or forgiveness of sins is in the word obeying and continuing in the word and light.We must always connect being saved with forgiveness of sins.If your saved your forgiven and if your forgiven your saved.Jesus is the word or blood,if you continue in Jesus the word the blood your forgiven and saved.All the truth of the new testament is the blood of Jesus.The blood is in the word when we obey.

Matt.26
[28] For this is my blood of the new testament(covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

1Cor.015:001 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel (truth) which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 015:002By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

We are saved by regeneration of the Holy Ghost.Keep in mind if were saved were forgiven.
Tit.3
[5] Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

We confess in water.
Matt.3
[6] And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

1John.1
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1John.1
[7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
John8:31. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;32. And ye shall know the truth (word) , and the truth shall make you free.


1 Tim.004:016Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; (teachings,word,Truth) continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.