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  #1  
Old 12-26-2007, 07:31 AM
Rhoni Rhoni is offline
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Question What Constitutes Discipleship?

Just thinking about this over the holidays: My mother was the greatest soul winner I ever knew. She won hundreds to the Lord within a 10-12 year period while I was growing up.

The things I noticed were:
  • The was a pot of coffee always brewing from early morning until about 4:30 pm. [My Dad/unsaved would come home from work at 5 pm].
  • Anyone who had a problem, my mom was always there to 'listen' and 'pray'.
  • If a family needed food, even my unsaved father, would buy extra groceries and take to them so the children could be fed.
  • Babysitting was primarily free: there were 4 girls in our family and we got volunteered quite a lot to babysit for folks in the neighborhood.
  • We all went with Mom on Saturdays to work the bus ministry. Mom started it and at one time we ran as high as 5 buses. We sometimes had to go in and dress kids, feed them breakfast on the bus, and then give them a bath sometimes at church because some were so filthy.
Today things seem so different. I had a male friend in Indiana who said he called 10-15 churches in the area trying to find someone to pick up his kids for Sunday School when he was out of town on a job and none of them ran a bus or would pick his kids up...he was so angry.

Just what do we do today to disciple people? Or do we?

Just thinking out loud,
Rhoni
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  #2  
Old 12-26-2007, 08:42 AM
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OneAccord OneAccord is offline
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Mat 28:19 "Go therefore[fn3] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Mat 28:20 "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.

The commission to "make disciples" is found in the Words of Jesus in Matthew 28:19-20. In order for the Great Commission to be fulfilled, all elements of Jesus' Words need to be followed. The Commission begins with the word "GO". It seems the Pentecostal Church is losing its evangelistic fevor. We seem to be content with "evangelizing" within the four walls of the church building. The emphasis seems to be on "discipling" the disciples, with little or no effort in reaching the unchurched with the Gospel. The message seems to be..."Here's the church...come and get it". But thats not what Jesus said for us to do...and that isn't what He did. We are to "GO"... . He went to the sinner. He went to the lost. He actively engaged in the ministry of evangelism. And, if we are to follow in His steps, we are to "Go...into all the world and preach the Gospel..."

But evangelism doesn't stop there. Once we "get" them, we are to teach them. We are to teach new converst ALL that Jesus commanded. Which includes, but certainly is not limited to water baptism. ALL things that He commands. And when we teach the Gospel in its fulness...it will be a living Gospel, vibrant, full of God's Presence.
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Waiting for the Lord is easy... Waiting patiently? Not so much.
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  #3  
Old 12-26-2007, 08:43 AM
Ronzo
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You mean Obeying Acts 2:38, Deut 22:5, and 1 Cor 11, isn't enough?

You mean that's not discipleship?
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  #4  
Old 12-26-2007, 08:45 AM
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Bro-Larry Bro-Larry is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: North end of DFW Airport
Posts: 1,375
Rhoni,

Is your mom still alive? your dad?

BTW: You are great at signing. Even I can read your's and I know nothing about signing.

BL
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  #5  
Old 12-26-2007, 09:14 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 31,124
I really feel you Rhoni. I’ve seen the awesome amount of neglect within the churches also. We live in an entirely different church culture today than they lived in decades ago. Today it seems most churches are trying to “grow” into mega-churches or “Worship Centers”. They provide “programs” but no real discipleship. The church has adopted a “business model” instead of holding fast to the model of the church found in Scripture.

Things are no longer personal. Everything is program driven. Used to people had a personal ministry to the lost and to the body. But today the church drafts and facilitates programs. Fewer people feel a personal call to serving or evangelizing….they leave these things to those involved with the outreach or ministry programs. And if the programs don’t run well or if they don’t exist….nobody steps up to the plate. And pastors pray that God will put a “burden” on someone to work in a field of ministry.

Sadly, all of this is unbiblical.

The original local church was a smaller and more organic body. They met in homes instead of sanctuaries and served one another. Here’s a list of the “one another” s found in Scripture:

• Be at peace with each other. Mark 9:50
• Love one another. John 13:34
• Be devoted to one another. Romans 12:10
• Honor one another above yourselves. Romans 12:10
• Stop passing judgment on one another. Romans 14:13
• Accept one another. Romans 15:7
• Instruct one another. Romans 15:14
• Greet one another. Romans 16:16
• Serve one another in love. Galatians 5:13
• Carry each other’s burdens. Galatians 6:2
• Be patient, bearing with one another in love. Ephesians 4:2
• Be kind and compassionate to one another. Ephesians 4:32
• Forgive each other. Ephesians 4:32
• Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Ephesians 5:19
• Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Ephesians 5:21
• In humility consider others better than yourselves. Philippians 2:3
• Teach and admonish one another with all wisdom. Colossians 3:16
• Encourage each other.1 Thessalonians 5:11
• Spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Hebrews 10:24
• Do not slander one another. James 4:11
• Don’t grumble against each other. James 5:9
• Confess your sins to one another. James 5:16
• Pray for each other. James 5:16
• Clothe yourselves with humility toward one another. 1 Peter 5:5

Our churches get too big and lumbering to do this. It’s not uncommon for people to not even know the folks sitting across the aisle from them.

Spiritual discipleship takes time and fellowship. It’s like Christian mentoring; mentoring a person into fullness in Christ. This cannot be achieved in programs, classes, spiritual development courses, etc. It is something that is developed in the midst of daily or semi-daily one on one interaction and communication. Openness must exist without judgmentalism, fear, or condemnation. A person must feel free to be human and open up so that they can be instructed in the ways of Jesus.

Sadly we’ve lost the “family” in the “family of God” and we have embraced the business model of this world’s corporate task masters. Tomorrow will bring another program, another class, another seminar, another development course. But more and more people will feel more and more hollow and alone, un-mentored, un-discipled, un-used, and un-fulfilled. They will just attend their church in a “spiritual drift” thinking that this is as good as it can get and must be better than the world. Some will leave the church and return to the friends and closeness they shared with those in the world. Some will attend church but come out to these forums to open up and share their pain, thoughts, feelings, and opinions. Why? Well, because the local really church doesn’t care for them as individuals. This is the only place their feelings and thoughts are heard. They have a ministry or a message in their souls and want to be heard but there’s no room for their ministry in the local church where there is only one pulpit and primarily one preacher. They live in a spiritual vacuum starving for the close and open Christian fellowship they find here.

The remedy is the house church. Many institutional churches are realizing this and forming cell groups and home fellowship groups. Praise the Lord for these. However, most of the institutional churches are trying to find more programs, gimmicks, etc.

In a way the internet is an online house church. We come here in the comfort of our own homes. The anonymity allows us the openness that should prevail in the church at large but doesn’t. We study Scripture, share thoughts and experiences, reflect on what the Scriptures mean to us, we have elders, teachers, preachers, brothers, and sisters who help us understand or to simply expose us to another viewpoint or possibility (sometimes the right one). And though many don’t accept the teaching immediately…we are all shaped by what we read here. Though I may not embrace another’s viewpoint entirely, their viewpoint shapes my viewpoint and makes it more developed and mature. Sometimes my viewpoint is revealed as being faulty or flawed and I must embrace what another has revealed.

It’s sad, but in spite of our differences (which are many) we tolerate each other here far more than we would in the modern church setting. In a sense our “internet fellowship” is more Christian than our “pretending” and “Amening” in our churches.

We need to grow closer in our local churches. We need to spiritually mentor and disciple one another. We need to provide more opportunities for ministry, preaching, and teaching among the men of the body. I believe this is best done in the house church format.

If you pastor a local church and wonder how to achieve this without entirely embracing the house church model…investigate forming cell groups or home fellowship groups. It will be in these regular smaller meetings that true discipleship and relationship building can take place. I’m convinced your church will grow closer as a result of growing…smaller.
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  #6  
Old 12-26-2007, 09:19 AM
Rhoni Rhoni is offline
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Posts: 8,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by big-larry View Post
Rhoni,

Is your mom still alive? your dad?

BTW: You are great at signing. Even I can read your's and I know nothing about signing.

BL
LOL. Big Larry,

You met my mother a few weeks ago Thank-you for the compliment. I love to sign...it is how I worship God.

Blessings, Rhoni
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  #7  
Old 12-26-2007, 09:28 AM
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nathan_slatter nathan_slatter is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 653
Aquila,

That is an excellent post!
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Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break into pieces. | Etienne de la Boetie

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  #8  
Old 12-26-2007, 09:40 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 31,124
Thank you Nathan. We've embraced a churchianity that doens't require personal investment in the lives of our brothers or sisters. Church is just another "appointment" on our to do lists. Church is no longer the family it was designed to be. We use terms such as "brother", "sister", and entreat elders as "fathers" for a reason. But we've forgotten that reason. Today church has become more of a business selling self help and affirmation.

We need to get back to our home based roots and be a family again.
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  #9  
Old 12-26-2007, 09:42 AM
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Bro-Larry Bro-Larry is offline
I believe the Gospel of Jesus


 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: North end of DFW Airport
Posts: 1,375
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
I really feel you Rhoni. I’ve seen the awesome amount of neglect within the churches also. We live in an entirely different church culture today than they lived in decades ago. Today it seems most churches are trying to “grow” into mega-churches or “Worship Centers”. They provide “programs” but no real discipleship. The church has adopted a “business model” instead of holding fast to the model of the church found in Scripture.

Things are no longer personal. Everything is program driven. Used to people had a personal ministry to the lost and to the body. But today the church drafts and facilitates programs. Fewer people feel a personal call to serving or evangelizing….they leave these things to those involved with the outreach or ministry programs. And if the programs don’t run well or if they don’t exist….nobody steps up to the plate. And pastors pray that God will put a “burden” on someone to work in a field of ministry.

Sadly, all of this is unbiblical.

The original local church was a smaller and more organic body. They met in homes instead of sanctuaries and served one another. Here’s a list of the “one another” s found in Scripture:

• Be at peace with each other. Mark 9:50
• Love one another. John 13:34
• Be devoted to one another. Romans 12:10
• Honor one another above yourselves. Romans 12:10
• Stop passing judgment on one another. Romans 14:13
• Accept one another. Romans 15:7
• Instruct one another. Romans 15:14
• Greet one another. Romans 16:16
• Serve one another in love. Galatians 5:13
• Carry each other’s burdens. Galatians 6:2
• Be patient, bearing with one another in love. Ephesians 4:2
• Be kind and compassionate to one another. Ephesians 4:32
• Forgive each other. Ephesians 4:32
• Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Ephesians 5:19
• Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Ephesians 5:21
• In humility consider others better than yourselves. Philippians 2:3
• Teach and admonish one another with all wisdom. Colossians 3:16
• Encourage each other.1 Thessalonians 5:11
• Spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Hebrews 10:24
• Do not slander one another. James 4:11
• Don’t grumble against each other. James 5:9
• Confess your sins to one another. James 5:16
• Pray for each other. James 5:16
• Clothe yourselves with humility toward one another. 1 Peter 5:5

Our churches get too big and lumbering to do this. It’s not uncommon for people to not even know the folks sitting across the aisle from them.

Spiritual discipleship takes time and fellowship. It’s like Christian mentoring; mentoring a person into fullness in Christ. This cannot be achieved in programs, classes, spiritual development courses, etc. It is something that is developed in the midst of daily or semi-daily one on one interaction and communication. Openness must exist without judgmentalism, fear, or condemnation. A person must feel free to be human and open up so that they can be instructed in the ways of Jesus.

Sadly we’ve lost the “family” in the “family of God” and we have embraced the business model of this world’s corporate task masters. Tomorrow will bring another program, another class, another seminar, another development course. But more and more people will feel more and more hollow and alone, un-mentored, un-discipled, un-used, and un-fulfilled. They will just attend their church in a “spiritual drift” thinking that this is as good as it can get and must be better than the world. Some will leave the church and return to the friends and closeness they shared with those in the world. Some will attend church but come out to these forums to open up and share their pain, thoughts, feelings, and opinions. Why? Well, because the local really church doesn’t care for them as individuals. This is the only place their feelings and thoughts are heard. They have a ministry or a message in their souls and want to be heard but there’s no room for their ministry in the local church where there is only one pulpit and primarily one preacher. They live in a spiritual vacuum starving for the close and open Christian fellowship they find here.

The remedy is the house church. Many institutional churches are realizing this and forming cell groups and home fellowship groups. Praise the Lord for these. However, most of the institutional churches are trying to find more programs, gimmicks, etc.

In a way the internet is an online house church. We come here in the comfort of our own homes. The anonymity allows us the openness that should prevail in the church at large but doesn’t. We study Scripture, share thoughts and experiences, reflect on what the Scriptures mean to us, we have elders, teachers, preachers, brothers, and sisters who help us understand or to simply expose us to another viewpoint or possibility (sometimes the right one). And though many don’t accept the teaching immediately…we are all shaped by what we read here. Though I may not embrace another’s viewpoint entirely, their viewpoint shapes my viewpoint and makes it more developed and mature. Sometimes my viewpoint is revealed as being faulty or flawed and I must embrace what another has revealed.

It’s sad, but in spite of our differences (which are many) we tolerate each other here far more than we would in the modern church setting. In a sense our “internet fellowship” is more Christian than our “pretending” and “Amening” in our churches.

We need to grow closer in our local churches. We need to spiritually mentor and disciple one another. We need to provide more opportunities for ministry, preaching, and teaching among the men of the body. I believe this is best done in the house church format.

If you pastor a local church and wonder how to achieve this without entirely embracing the house church model…investigate forming cell groups or home fellowship groups. It will be in these regular smaller meetings that true discipleship and relationship building can take place. I’m convinced your church will grow closer as a result of growing…smaller.
Bro Aquila,

I assume you are brother by your username.

You have amazing insight!!! I have been studying the business/mega church model for some time. I think you have nailed it exactly. I find it interesting that the largest church in the world, pioneered and still uses the home church concept. David/Paul Yonggi Cho's in Seoul South Korea.

I was truly blessed by your post. BL
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  #10  
Old 12-26-2007, 09:44 AM
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seguidordejesus seguidordejesus is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2007
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Discipleship means staring at new converts with a sour face until they "line up."

Also be sure to call them by their first name or "Mr." or "Mrs." then when they line up start calling them Bro. and Sis.
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