Where are all the Acts 2:38 folks (3-steppers)??

[PastorD]

Can we have an OSCARS Thread for AFF? The drama in some of these posts would rival anything in Hollywood.

[Hoovie]

BP, do you you must... but please. This forum is very much like real life. I question how you can cope day to day... just state what and how you are thinking and know that some will disagree. There is really no need to elevate the conversation and start cutting yourself off. I say come back and let's talk. It's healthy!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

One step = Repent and you are forgiven, filled with the Holy Spirit, and saved. No water baptism and no Spirit baptism with the evidence of speaking in tongues needed. If you die of a heart attack immediately after you repent, you are on your way to glory.

Well Mizpeh, as a so called three stepper, sacramentalists, baptismal regenerationalist, papal pope loving Roman Catholic Mormon according to some, even I would not force God into a box there and say that person went to hell. Yes if he truly had faith and repented and then immediately had a heart attack and died before being baptized in water and baptized with the Holy Spirit, I do not think God sends him to hell.....where that puts me I don't know....

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I know that it's not in your temperament to ever boast, St Matt.

The discussion has a bit of complexity that doesn't always get articulated. The act of your believing is really a fruit of the workings of the Holy Spirit in your heart. In fact it can be said that you are not even making a choice in the matter. The choice was made for you before you were ever born when God selected you for salvation from before the foundation of the world.

Focusing upon God's gracious selection of your wretched sinful self, we can see that all of the events of human history actually unfolded as they did just to highlight that moment when you first received forgiveness of sin.

Of course you repented, of course you were baptized properly, of course you, by the power and grace of God, live an overcoming life. All of these things simply flow from that first act of grace that occurred before you could ever do right or wrong.

You see the "one step" was the step God Almighty took Himself when He chose you to be a part of His kingdom. And He made that choice before the foundation of the world!

God predestines according to His foreknowledge of the choices He allows us to make. He knew ahead of the event that you would hear the gospel and believe and that you would act upon that belief by repenting and so on...

God chooses and calls us based on his foreknowledge. He knows the end from the beginning.

[Sherri]

I really don't know any "one steppers" who say you just have to believe in Jesus, as St. Matt stated. I would consider myself more of a one stepper than three, but I don't think it's enough to just believe. You have to confess your sins and turn from the ways of the world. To repent means to do an about-face and start heading the other direction. To leave the kingdom of darkness and enter the kingdom of God's dear Son. That is more than easy believism!

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Well Mizpeh, as a so called three stepper, sacramentalists, baptismal regenerationalist, papal pope loving Roman Catholic Mormon according to some, even I would not force God into a box there and say that person went to hell. Yes if he truly had faith and repented and then immediately had a heart attack and died before being baptized in water and baptized with the Holy Spirit, I do not think God sends him to hell.....where that puts me I don't know....

It puts you on the fence and keeps you from being the JUDGE of tricky questions or maybe a believer of the light doctrine.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

God predestines according to His foreknowledge of the choices He allows us to make. He knew ahead of the event that you would hear the gospel and believe and that you would act upon that belief by repenting and so on...

God chooses and calls us based on his foreknowledge. He knows the end from the beginning.

If I gave my youngest son the keys to a car and instructed him to drive across town I would be held responsible in a court of law because, as and adult, I should have foreseen the inevitable outcome of such an act.

And knowing before hand that a person will reject His salvation, God goes ahead and allows that person to be born, indeed God participates in the birth (Psalm 71:6); is not God Himself then responsible for the outcome He has foreseen? (Romans 9:14-15).

So also with salvation. For "it does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy" (Romans 9:16).

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

If I gave my youngest son the keys to a car and instructed him to drive across town I would be held responsible in a court of law because, as and adult, I should have foreseen the inevitable outcome of such an act.

And knowing before hand that a person will reject His salvation, God goes ahead and allows that person to be born, indeed God participates in the birth (Psalm 71:6); is not God Himself then responsible for the outcome He has foreseen? (Romans 9:14-15).

So also with salvation. For "it does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy" (Romans 9:16).

Is God responsible for Adam and Eve's sin? or is God responsible for Hitler's atrocities? Is God responsible for our choices, good or bad?

Here's an interesting verse at the beginning of A Tale of Three Kings:

They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not. Hosea 8:4

God was not consulted in choosing some of the kings and princes of Israel. Free will is given to us by God. He sovereignly allows us to make choices. We are responsible for the decisions we make. It's God will for all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Who's fault is it if all men don't repent? Someone is resisting God's will and obviously, God is allowing them to. Why? Because He has given us a will that is not bound to His own will.

God knowing beforehand the destination of every soul doesn't make Him responsible for the actions of those souls that freely choose to disobey Him and end up lost.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Is God responsible for Adam and Eve's sin? or is God responsible for Hitler's atrocities? Is God responsible for our choices, good or bad?

Here's an interesting verse at the beginning of A Tale of Three Kings:

They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not. Hosea 8:4

God was not consulted in choosing some of the kings and princes of Israel. Free will is given to us by God. He sovereignly allows us to make choices. We are responsible for the decisions we make. It's God will for all men to repent and come to the knowledge of the truth.

Who's fault is it if all men don't repent? Someone is resisting God's will and obviously, God is allowing them to. Why? Because He has given us a will that is not bound to His own will.

God knowing beforehand the destination of every soul doesn't make Him responsible for the actions of those souls that freely choose to disobey Him and end up lost.

God is responsible, that is why there is a judgment. If, after allowing evil to have reign He did nothing about it, then He would be guilty of injustice.

There's a difference between "responsibility" and "guilt." Guilt means there was a moral failing on the part of the guilty. God is not "guilty." He is responsible, however. It is His creation and the results of His act in creating are his responsibility.

But back to the effect of of grace in salvation, Romans 9:16: "it does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy."

Of course, this is just one side of the coin. But it is the side that we as Apostolics often overlook. There is a fundamental paradox between free will and determinism. The debates around this are older than even the Christian faith. We could have the same debates endlessly here but neither side will be resolved, because fundamentally both sides are correct.

And as Christians we need both sides preached in balance. Grace and human responsibility. Both are correct.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by Brother Price

StMatthew, this is the third time I have tried to post something to respond to this quote. What I found out is that I cannot and stay a member of this forum. I love Christ too much to continuously raise my BP as this does. It is not worth it.

I am beginning to think about a serious, real serious long term self ban from this forum. I feel if I remain here, I will return back to the old hateful, arrogant, self-righteous, paranoid, self-serving, egotist which can turn a bad attitude on a dime. I no longer have it in me to deal with people who attack men instead of doctrine. I cannot become that much of an elitist ever again.

Goodbye. No goodbye thread needed. Love to one and all.

Sorry you feel that way. I have to wonder though why you can throw out the Grace Only doctrine when it does not match what you are saying either. ANY works on our part would, from the argument you proposed, negate Christ being enough for salvation, wouldn't it?? This would include repentance and confession. The balanced view is that God offers salvation to us unworthy folks (Grace), and we obey his word and are accepted.