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  #1051  
Old 01-01-2008, 08:18 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
Here's a sincere question. If a man lay dying in the hospital and pleaded with you to pray with him as he made his peace with God...would you?
Yes, of course.
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  #1052  
Old 01-01-2008, 08:23 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
Yes, of course.
RU 3 or 1 step?
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  #1053  
Old 01-01-2008, 09:01 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
RU 3 or 1 step?
I believe to be born again you have to be baptized in water and in the Spirit.
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His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
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  #1054  
Old 01-01-2008, 09:18 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
I believe to be born again you have to be baptized in water and in the Spirit.
Above you had answered my question regarding prayer for a dying man in the hospital wanting to make his peace with God and be saved with the following:

Quote:
Yes, of course.
If one doesn't believe that he can be saved without being water baptized in Jesus name and filled with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues...what would be the purpose in praying for a dying man in the hospitial who will not be able to obey Acts 2:38 in it's entirety?

I ask this because I have always attended a church that was a three stepper church. In fact I didn't even know there were one stepper Apostolics until I began reading some of this thread a few days ago. A 3 step minister I know was called in the evening and asked to come to the hospital to pray for a man who was dying. This man was a close friend of a saved couple in this minister's church. The man was dying and his organs were shutting down. He was given heavy pain killers but was conscious though sedated. The minister refused. He explained that the man had his chance to repent and obey the gospel while in good health...he should now answer to God for the way he lived.

Another minister I had spoken to said that he answered a call to come pray for a dying man and told the man that his only hope was for a divine healing so that he could obey the gospel. The man's family was very upset and the man died later that night. The preacher refused to officiate over the man's funeral because he believed God had judged him by not healing him and thereby allowing him to obey all three steps of Acts 2:38 and be saved.

If one were a 3 stepper I can't see any real value in leading a dying man to believe he was praying in making his peace with God when in fact he wasn't going to be able to obey all three steps to Acts 2:38. I also cannot see putting a dying man and his family through the trauma of "divine healing being the man's only hope". I'd figure a three stepper would best refuse to pray for the dying.

Or is the willingness and conviction to pray for the dying who have no opportunity to be water baptized an inner witness to a 1 step possibility?
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  #1055  
Old 01-01-2008, 09:23 PM
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OneAccord OneAccord is offline
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Yes, I would pray with him. And, if he prayed sincerely in repentance and "made his peace with God" I would reassure him afterwards that God had forgiven his sins and, if he were o pass on, that he'd go to be with the Lord. And I would be honest about it and wouldn't say some wishy washy , "Well, we'll just leave that up to God". I would not tell him, "No, even though you have repented of your sins, you are still hell bound", because IMO, that just ain't so.

However, lest I be accused of not believing in water baptism, I would tell the man that if, should he recover, he should be baptized in Jesus Name and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

This whole debate thing here is... perplexing. Has any PCI'er or whatever they are called ever denied baptism in Jesus Name? Maybe I've missed something, but who is denying water baptism as a biblical concept? Somewhere on this forum is a thread entitled "What is Baptism for?" Heres another question... If sins are forgiven, remitted or covered at baptism, whats repentance for?

Tell you what...look at a diagram of the Tabernacle in the wilderness. You'll first see the altar where sacrifices were slain and blood was spilled. (Repentance) Then you'll see the brasen laver that separated sin (the altar) from the Holy Place. The water separates us from sin (baptism). Then there the Holy Place. Thats the Holy Ghost . We enter in through the Holy Ghost. Then theres the Holiest of Holies, where God is sitting on His Throne (The Mercy Seat). God drew a picture of the Plan of salvation and we still have trouble seeing it because that picture don't quite mesh with what we believe.
Blood applied at Repentance (altar). Baptism separates us from sin, (Laver) We enter Gods Kingdom (Tabernacle) through the Holy Ghost. If we'd just read the Bible for what it says and not for what we want it to say, we wouldn't have this confusion.

Need another picture? Read the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. Now, when was his blood shed? (Death) What was buried with Him (Our sins- baptism). Who is resurrected with Him (Those filled with the HG). If we can't read the Word for what it says, lets just look at the pictures He left us.

One more:

John 3. Unless we are born again (repent) we can't SEE (Comprehend, understand) the Kingdom of God. We can't see the Taberbnacle outside its enclosure) Next, we enter the Tabernacle grounds by repenting at the altar. We can SEE the Tabernacle, but we can't ENTER until 1) we are washed (baptism). and, 2 recieve the Holy Ghost (ENTER the Tabernacle).

3 births in the spirit realm, 3 in the natural realm: A child is concieved (birth 1, repentance-Blood), The body is formed in water (birth 2- baptism-Water), and live birth (Newness of Life ( Birth 3- The Holy Ghost Baptism- Spirit) But, when does life begin? (At conception -unless you believe the abortion lie). I believe life begins at conception when we are born again at repentance. If I am wrong... is the Tabernacle wrong? Is the death, burial and resurrection of Christ wrong? Is nature wrong? Was Jesus wrong when He spoke to Nicodemus?

If we can't READ what the Book says, then we need to just look at the Pictures.
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  #1056  
Old 01-01-2008, 09:25 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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God is able to heal the repentant man who is dying. I would pray for him.

If he wanted to be baptized after I explained to him the necessity of water baptism, I would get him to a whirlpool. I would pray for him.

If he wanted to recieve the Holy Spirt after I explained the necessity of Spirit baptism. I would pray for him.
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His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
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  #1057  
Old 01-01-2008, 09:31 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Why do you think a dying man in a hospital has no chance of being baptized. If someone is dying and their last request is to be baptized, I would make it happen by putting them on a stretcher and taking them to a whirlpool even if I had to I'd use a lift to hoyer them into the water and back out again. You assume the impossible but with God anything is possible even saving a dying man.
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His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
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  #1058  
Old 01-01-2008, 09:36 PM
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Sam Sam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh View Post
Why do you think a dying man in a hospital has no chance of being baptized. If someone is dying and their last request is to be baptized, I would make it happen by putting them on a stretcher and taking them to a whirlpool even if I had to I'd use a lift to hoyer them into the water and back out again. You assume the impossible but with God anything is possible even saving a dying man.
I've also heard of people who were on their death bed being sprinkled or having a little water poured on them if they couldn't be moved. This was considered "plan B" but "plan A" would have been full immersion or full soaking in water.
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  #1059  
Old 01-01-2008, 09:39 PM
mizpeh mizpeh is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam View Post
I've also heard of people who were on their death bed being sprinkled or having a little water poured on them if they couldn't be moved. This was considered "plan B" but "plan A" would have been full immersion or full soaking in water.
I'm trying to think of a reason someone who is dying couldn't get out of bed with assistance to go to a tub and I can't.
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His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?

To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
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  #1060  
Old 01-01-2008, 09:43 PM
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Sam Sam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
Thad, everyone doesn't know the answer to the question. Your answer illustrates my point. Mizpeh's answer was that the "one stepper" believes that the sinner must "repent" to be saved. That's a vast difference when compared to what you're saying. You say that the "one stepper" believes that the sinner must "accept Jesus" as their personal savior. The comparison just between your explaination and Mizpeh's explaination is essentially "repentance" vs. "easy believism".

I highly doubt the "one stepper" holds to "easy believism". Repentance is a very deep and powerful thing. If one repents of sin, with true godly sorrow, and turns toward God asking forgiveness, that is no lite matter. If one repents of sin they have experienced a true change of heart based on circumstance and/or revelation. Should they continue living they will certainly grow in grace and truth, desiring to be water baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost. However, should they die on the way to their baptism or not last through the night in the hospital, the "one stepper" would count them saved. The factor is true "repentance" not merely "believing" in the Lord Jesus as personal savior. Certainly the one stepper might call into question the salvation of one professing belief in Christ, yet not living a fully repentant and obedient life, including the desire to be water baptized and filled with the Spirit.

Do you see the difference?
Some times "one-steppers" are accused of making it too easy or too simple when they talk about a person being saved or justified by faith. The way I understand it is that faith is not just mentally agreeing with some one or some thing. Faith results in action.

Hebrews chapter 11 is called “the faith chapter” or “God’s Hall of Fame.” Throughout the whole chapter we are given example after example of people of faith. In each case the faith of these people resulted in action. Over and over we read, “by faith, so and so DID such and such.” It is an action chapter. Joni Eareckson-Tada said, “Faith isn’t the ability to believe long and far into the misty future, It’s simply taking God at His Word and taking the next step.” Martin Luther King said, “Take the first step in faith. You don’t have to see the whole staircase, just the first step.”

These are some notes that I’ve written in my Bible in chapter 2 of the Book of James. Some are attributed to the person who said or wrote them, others I don’t remember where I heard or saw them.

Faith is the root of salvation, works are the fruit.

John Calvin said, “Faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is not alone.”

“Faith is not even worthy of the name until it erupts into action,” Catherine Marshall

“Faith is never passive. It is an action word. It is not just mental assent. It demands a response --some kind of action,” Bill Bright

Doing, not doctrine, is the test of faith.

Faith leads people to do what the men of the world cannot understand at all.

Rev. Dr. Halsey Dewey spent at least 30 years as a missionary for the Methodist Church in India. On one occasion he invited Mahatma Gandhi to speak to his congregation. Gandhi said, “If you Christians would truly follow the teachings as found in your Bible, you could take this city by storm.”

----------------------------------------------
Believing in Jesus or believing on Jesus, or trusting in Jesus as Savior.

I’m not quite sure what “easy believism” is. I’ve heard the term before and I think it means just a mental assent to something or what we might call head faith. For example we could say we believe in George Washington or we believe in Abraham Lincoln This could mean that we accept the concept that there was indeed an historical person named George Washington and one named Abraham Lincoln. Many people believe in Jesus this way. Yes, there was years ago a person named Jesus who lived, taught, and died in the area we now call Israel. I don’t think that is what the Bible means when it speaks of believing in or having faith in Jesus Christ. James chapter 2 speaks of faith which is demonstrated by and accompanied by action contrasted with just saying we believe. The difference would be between head faith and heart faith or between living faith and dead faith. James 2:18 sarcastically says that just claiming to believe doesn’t mean much because the demons believe in one God and obviously they are not saved by that kind of faith. Some times we hear the term saving faith which would mean a trust in or surrender to Jesus.

John 1:12 says that if a person receives Jesus he then has the right to become a child of God. The term receive is then expanded to mean believing in His name. Acts 16:31 says believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. 1 John 5:1 says that whoever believes that Jesus is the Anointed One or the Christ has been born of God. Romans 10:9-10 says that if a person confesses with his mouth Jesus as Lord and believes in his heart that Jesus has risen from the dead, that person is saved. This is further explained that with the heart a person believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. In other words, salvation occurs when a person believes in or trusts in Jesus. One of the pastors of the VCC where I used to go says he prefers to use the word trust instead of faith or believe. One of the Bibles that I regularly use, The Complete Jewish Bible, uses the words trust or trusting instead of faith, believe or believing.

These are a couple of notes from the Spirit Filled Life Bible, copyright 1991, Jack Hayford, General Editor. These notes attempt to define the words believe and faith as used in the Old and New Testaments.

Believe, Hebrew word aman, Strong’s number 539, To be firm, stable, established; also, to be firmly persuaded; to believe solidly. In its causative form aman means to believe, that is, to consider trustworthy. This is the word used in Gen 15:6, when Abraham believed in the Lord. ...From aman comes emunah, faith. The most famous derivative is amen which conveys this idea; It is solidly, firmly, surely true and verified and established.

Faith, Greek word pistis, Strong’s number 4102. Conviction, confidence, trust, belief, reliance, trustworthiness, and persuasion. In the NT setting, pistis is the divinely implanted principle of inward confidence, assurance, trust, and reliance in God and all that He says.

Believe, Greek word pistseuo, Strong's 4100, The verb form of pistis, faith. It means to trust in, have faith in, be fully convinced of, acknowledge, rely on. Pisteuo is more than credence in church doctrines or articles of faith. it expresses reliance upon and a personal trust that produces obedience. It includes submission and a positive confession of the lordship of Jesus.

This is a note from the preface of the Amplified Bible
...Acts 16:31 reads: Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved. What does the word believe mean? Webster defines it: to place credence...apart from personal knowledge; to expect or hope...to be more or less firmly persuaded of the truth of anything, to think or suppose. In this sense, most people believe in Christ --that He lived; that He was a perfect Man Who sincerely believed Himself to be the Son of God, and that He died on the cross to save sinners. But this is by no means the meaning of the Greek word which twenty-two New Testament versions out of twenty-four consulted render believe. They do so because there is no one English word that adequately conveys the intended meaning. Actually, the Greek word used here for believe is pisteuo. It means to adhere to, cleave to, to trust, to have faith in; to rely on. Consequently the words, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ really mean to have an absolute personal reliance upon the Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.

This is the way Acts 16:31 reads in the Amplified Bible
31 And they answered, Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ give yourself up to Him, [take yourself out of your own keeping and entrust yourself into His keeping] and you will be saved, [and this applies both to] you and your household as well
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