Where are all the Acts 2:38 folks (3-steppers)??

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The comment about India...what do you mean? THey have water there

Some places have no running water. To move the dying may lead to quickening their death. The point is that there are occasions, as I illustrated in post 1073 in which the full Acts 2:38 experience isn't likely or is next to impossible.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by OneAccord

A man repented in a revival at our church years ago. He asked to be baptized, but the pastor said to wait til Sunday. The man was killed on Saturday.

I'll go on record and say it. The man, I believe, went to be with the Lord, because he intended to follow the Lord in baptism. The pastor in your case will be held accountable- not because the man wasn't baptized, but 1) for not baptizing according to Christs command (Matt. 28:19) and 2, for judging the man to hell. Alot of people will have to answer for that second one.

Oh, so sorry for using the "non-oneness" verse above (in bold).

This really gets old.....ALL scripture are Oneness verses.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Aquila

A woman was dying. She had a series of heart attacks and they continued to stablize her each time her heart stopped. She was connected to so many machines keeping her stable it would have taken a truck to move her and all necessary equipment. These machines were assisting her with breathing, administering doses of medication to assist the heart, medication to thin the blood, etc. Moving her would kill her. She could nod her head and was crying. She could answer simple yes or no questions. She struggled to say one word, with tubes obstructing her ability to properly speak, she said, "...preacher..." The staff began the effort to track down the local chaplain. One of the staff, an Apostolic lay preacher, offers to pray for her while they paged the chaplain. This staff member held her hand and prayed with her that the Lord would hear her prayer, they pled the blood of Jesus over her and prayed with her for God to forgive her of all her sins. They ask that God would comfort her in her time of need and that all fear would be gone. Though she mostly gave weak nods and some gurgled words ("Amen,""Jesus save me,"'Sorry Jesus") she wept with tears streaming down the sides of her face. Shortly after closing the prayer she became unstable, her heart stopped, and they never could recover her.

Unbaptized and unable to "speak in tongues" was she saved? Should the Apostolic (a family member) have just stood by without praying for her?

Only God knows the validity of her faith.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I believe that the woman may very well have been saved. However, had she been healed or survived the ordeal she would have to continue to grow in her Christian salvation by being water baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost.

As a brother said above, the point of repentance is a spiritual "conception", she simply lost her life before full maturity.

I agree

[James Griffin]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Only God knows the validity of her faith.

Good point! So it is at least possible she was saved?

[Aquila]

If I wasn't forgiven of sin upon repentance...how was I able to receive the Holy Ghost before water baptism?
If sins are not forgiven until water baptism...how does anyone receive the Holy Ghost before they are water baptized?

It seems to me that God may not be a three stepper. You see, we can debate all night about theoretical situations and interpretations...but the issue for me is...WHAT DOES GOD ACTUALLY DO? How does God actually move? What is God saying to us in his method of operation? If God fills a repentant believer with the Holy Ghost before water baptism...they are clearly forgiven, clean, and holy at that moment (because the Holy Ghost will not enter into nor dwell in an unclean temple), though any of us may be able to write the most articulate argument in support of three step doctrine. What God actually does will always trump our theories.

How do those who have yet to be water baptized receive the Holy Ghost if their sins are not forgiven at repentance and must be forgiven at water baptism?

I have yet to see this addressed or have this explained to me.

[OneAccord]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Mizpeh, do you think there is any significance to the change in grammar between verse 3 and 5?

Verse three says born again to SEE the kingdom
and first 5 says born of water and Spirit to enter the kingdom.

I know you directed this question to Mizpeh, but, yes, there is a significance to the wording. See post 1055 on this thread.

[Aquila]

I truly loved the illustration a brother gave about conception.

A child is conceived in the womb and there is no apparent evidence that a new life has begun, yet the child is alive...it is a life. However, upon birth it breaks the water and is seen by all. Then it takes it's first breath.

Is it possible that the salvation of a soul begins at repentance and it is therefore spiritually conceived; yet evidence of this new life isn't witnessed until it matures and is water baptized? Then this soul takes it's first breath by receiving the Holy Ghost?

To deny that a soul doesn't experience salvation and new life in Christ at repentance would then be the same as arguing that a child isn't truly alive upon conception.

That would mean that some may be saved, yet find their life in the Kingdom of God miscarried before reaching full maturity. However, if they live and mature they will be water baptized and filled with the Holy Ghost and experience the Kingdom of God in their lives.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Raven

????????????????????????????
I can think of many!!! A dying man?????????????????????
Raven

What are you thinking of? I work in a hospital (not in the ER) and have seen many people die in different situations. If there is a dying person who has the wherewithal and desire to repent then I would get them to water if they wanted to be baptized.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

The spiritual reasoning among us is quite astonishing something to behold.

Let me ask you, if after you were to chain hoist a dying man down into a whirlpool but it was not quite deep enough and all he had sticking out of the water was the tip of his nose, not fully baptized, would that baptism still count?

There are places in the world, such as in India, that you will NEVER get baptized and would be lucky to get a glass of water poured on you.

I don't live in India.

We don't use chain hoists in the hospital. Give me a break! What whirlpool cannot immerse a person. Are you thinking we do whirlpools in a trough?

Since you are going to nitpic and keep narrowing the scope of the question so that it would, in your mind, be impossible to baptize this hypothetical dying person and then if I say without water baptism they are not born again, you will of course accuse me of whatever floats your boat, I'm bowing out of this foolishness.

God is able to heal a dying repentant person so they can be baptized.