Romans 10:9

[Adino]

Originally Posted by scotty

Here my opinion, one must be a clean vessel for the infilling of the Holy Ghost, or as we say "have your heart right". This is done through "true" repentance. God wants everyone to be saved so that none may perish. All that being said. If someone "truly" repents why would they not recieve the Holy Ghost as evidence of speaking in tongues.

To me salvation is at the infilling (ducking). Anyone can say they have repented or believe, but only God knows the heart, and if the heart of repentance is true and pure then the infilling WILL follow. Seek and ye shall find. It is our promise from Him. If the God Almighty fills one with His spirit then whether or not that one is saved is no longer a question. Baptized or not. Yet one who recieves the Holy Ghost is going to get baptized, the Spirit will insist it.

Scotty, ALL who believe have passed from death unto life (John 3:15-16, 36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26), therefore ALL who believe possess the life giving Spirit of God. These are to be baptized.

[Adino]

John 4:1

When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John

Notice that Christ only baptized those who had become his disciples. He made disciples and baptized those disciples.

Christ only baptized Christians!

This is precisely what Christ taught to do in Matthew 28:19

Go to the people of all nations and make them my disciples. Baptize them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (CEV)

We are commanded to baptize Christians! Only those who are FIRST Christians are to be baptized!

[augustianian]

Scotty,

May I??

Here my opinion, one must be a clean vessel for the infilling of the Holy Ghost, or as we say "have your heart right".

That is "as the OP says" but...if it is the Spirit that gives life then how can a "dead" man have his heart right??

This is done through "true" repentance.

How can a "dead" man repent, true or falsely, when he is dead??

What exactly is "false repentance"??
Repentance, or conversion, is not accomplished apart from the Holy Spirit, it is the direct result of the work of the Holy Spirit...a work that is always done on someone whose heart is NOT right. It's called regeneration.

God wants everyone to be saved so that none may perish.

I'll leave that alone for right now...but if you follow the antecedent of the phrase "not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance" in II Peter 3:9 it's the word "you" which means that Peter is talking to believers.

All that being said. If someone "truly" repents why would they not recieve the Holy Ghost as evidence of speaking in tongues.

Because that gift is not given to them. By the way, can you show me where Paul spoke in tongues when he received the Holy Spirit??

To me salvation is at the infilling (ducking). Anyone can say they have repented or believe, but only God knows the heart, and if the heart of repentance is true and pure then the infilling WILL follow.

If a person truly repents, that in and of itself IS evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Since God knows the heart, as you acknowledge, then how can you deny a non-tongue speaking salvation especially since there is only a tacit link, that can be easily refuted, between the infilling of the Holy Spirit and "speaking in tongues."

It seems to me that you want it both ways.

You want to authenticate a non-tongue speaking infilling because God knows the heart...which saves you from the accusation of being judgmental.

But you also nullify that position based on your views about speaking in tongues....because that would mean that you know the heart also, right??

Which is it?? Is true repentance the domain of God or not??

Seek and ye shall find. It is our promise from Him. If the God Almighty fills one with His spirit then whether or not that one is saved is no longer a question. Baptized or not. Yet one who recieves the Holy Ghost is going to get baptized, the Spirit will insist it.

...and every believer DOES get baptized. No problem....except they don't baptize the way you want them to.

But since God knows the heart, and not you, how could you possibly say that a non-tongues speaker, non-Jesus' only baptized believer is not.....a believer, is not truly repented, and is not saved??

a

[scotty]

Originally Posted by augustianian

Scotty,

May I??

Here my opinion, one must be a clean vessel for the infilling of the Holy Ghost, or as we say "have your heart right".

That is "as the OP says" but...if it is the Spirit that gives life then how can a "dead" man have his heart right??

This is done through "true" repentance.

How can a "dead" man repent, true or falsely, when he is dead??

What exactly is "false repentance"??
Repentance, or conversion, is not accomplished apart from the Holy Spirit, it is the direct result of the work of the Holy Spirit...a work that is always done on someone whose heart is NOT right. It's called regeneration.

God wants everyone to be saved so that none may perish.

I'll leave that alone for right now...but if you follow the antecedent of the phrase "not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance" in II Peter 3:9 it's the word "you" which means that Peter is talking to believers.

All that being said. If someone "truly" repents why would they not recieve the Holy Ghost as evidence of speaking in tongues.

Because that gift is not given to them. By the way, can you show me where Paul spoke in tongues when he received the Holy Spirit??

To me salvation is at the infilling (ducking). Anyone can say they have repented or believe, but only God knows the heart, and if the heart of repentance is true and pure then the infilling WILL follow.

If a person truly repents, that in and of itself IS evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Since God knows the heart, as you acknowledge, then how can you deny a non-tongue speaking salvation especially since there is only a tacit link, that can be easily refuted, between the infilling of the Holy Spirit and "speaking in tongues."

It seems to me that you want it both ways.

You want to authenticate a non-tongue speaking infilling because God knows the heart...which saves you from the accusation of being judgmental.

But you also nullify that position based on your views about speaking in tongues....because that would mean that you know the heart also, right??

Which is it?? Is true repentance the domain of God or not??

Seek and ye shall find. It is our promise from Him. If the God Almighty fills one with His spirit then whether or not that one is saved is no longer a question. Baptized or not. Yet one who recieves the Holy Ghost is going to get baptized, the Spirit will insist it.

...and every believer DOES get baptized. No problem....except they don't baptize the way you want them to.

But since God knows the heart, and not you, how could you possibly say that a non-tongues speaker, non-Jesus' only baptized believer is not.....a believer, is not truly repented, and is not saved??

a

We simply differ on beliefs, I believe HG infilling as evidenced by speaking in tongues. We will simply have to agree to disagree.

When I say "true" repentance I speak of the heart of the man repenting. one may speak the prayer yet not mean it in their heart? God knows if that person is sincere (thats the word I was looking for)(since we are nitwording) I don't believe repentance is a work of the Spirit, Man must decide to repent. so someone just walking down the street can suddenly be repented and filled without even knowing or asking?

the bible says they were filled with the Holy Ghost and spoke with other tongues. where does it say If a person truly repents, that in and of itself IS evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

[Adino]

...where does it say If a person truly repents, that in and of itself IS evidence of the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

Scotty, in genuine repentance man returns to God through faith in Christ. This conversion is evidence of a quickening work (regenerative work) of the Spirit. ALL who believe have life, i.e., have a spirit which has been made alive by the Spirit of God (John 3:6, 15-16, 36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26).

God grants repentance unto life (Acts 11:18). If life is present, then the Spirit of God, which is the Spirit of Life, is present. Do not make the mistake of thinking a tongues experience is the first work of the Spirit in a person's heart. No man can even say Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Ghost (1Corinthians 12:3). The man able to make a genuine confession of faith HAS the Spirit of God living in him. He is alive by virtue of the Spirit within him.

[augustianian]

Scotty,

We simply differ on beliefs, I believe HG infilling as evidenced by speaking in tongues. We will simply have to agree to disagree.

So everybody that in filled with the Holy Spirit speaks in tongues, right?? What about Paul?? Where does it say that he spoke in tongues when he received the Holy Spirit?? Now before you accuse me of not knowing what Im talking about, I assure you that I know that Paul spoke in tongues...I Corinthians 14:18, which is problematic with the OP considering that he goes on to say that not all speak in tongues in I Corinthians 12:30. Those that don't speak in tongues in I Corinthians 12:30; Are they truly Spirit filled as in I Corinthians 12:13?? Paul includes the non-tongue speaker in I Corinthians 12:13 as the part of the group that had been baptized by one Spirit.

Now I have heard the argument that Paul in I Corinthians is talking about a "gift" of tongues and not the "initial evidence" tongues...which is why I asked the question if you could show me where Paul spoke in tongues when he received the Holy Spirit. You can't. So there is no prima facie evidence to make a distinction between the "initial evidence" tongues and the "gift" of tongues. There is no difference between the two, meaning that not all who believe and are included in I Corinthians 12:13 speak in tongues, i.e. I Corinthians 12:30.

When I say "true" repentance I speak of the heart of the man repenting. one may speak the prayer yet not mean it in their heart?

My contention is not with this assessment but rather with your assertion that a repentance that does not follow with "speaking in tongues" is not a true repentance. You cannot establish that rule in scripture.

God knows if that person is sincere (thats the word I was looking for)(since we are nitwording) I don't believe repentance is a work of the Spirit, Man must decide to repent. so someone just walking down the street can suddenly be repented and filled without even knowing or asking?

That's silly. The gospel is a proposition delivered to the sinner, whereby if the sinner responds in faith it is because the Spirit has enabled the sinner to believe. It's not an accident by someone who is ignorant of the proposition. The sinner's will is involved in the decision...but before the will can choose to repent the will HAS to be converted by the Spirit...like I've already said "dead" men do not repent. Until they are "made alive in Christ" (Ephesians 2) they are unable (John 6:44, 61-65).

I don't believe repentance is a work of the Spirit,

Are you serious?? What about Ephesians 2?? What about Titus 3:5-7?? What about John 3?? What about Romans 8??

Again, how does a "dead man" repent?? He is spiritually dead.

a

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Adino

So the analogy stops at the lifting up and does not include the believing unto salvation? Isn't the following true?

Joh 3:14-15 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That [as with the lifted serpent] whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life..... 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life......20:30-31 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

I never said the following was not true, however the only part of the bronze serpent story that is elaborated on is the part about being lifted up. He never says "and just as they looked to the bronze serpent in faith to be healed so too if they look to me hanging on the cross to be saved they will be saved"....it might be true, but the text does not say that and it seems you are either assuming that is what was meant or reading it into the text

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

The author does not speak of faith alone...the narration or Jesus uses this analogy to show what needed to happen to Jesus. Those same people that had faith to be healed failed to enter the promised land because of a lack of faith.....

What is your comment on this part Adino?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Adino

Sorry, Bro. Not what John 4:1 says. Christ first made disciples then baptized them.

Though I agree with "Believe THEN be baptized". Believing made people Christians..... Christians were THEN baptized.

Only people who are FIRST Christians are to be baptized.

A disciple is not necessarily a believer though. Judas was a disciple.

[Praxeas]

Augustinian, you know you can use the qoute butten and it will quote the entire content and then you can break each quote up into smaller quote boxes by using the yellow quot butten at the top of the editor?