Then why are you beating this horse brother. I too am starting to wonder why the need to try and divide.
There are over a hundred pages here where us "3-steppers" have spoken against what you are talking about, why are you still trying to make an issue out of a non-issue.
Maybe it's because you're arguements don't hold water and contradict biblical precedent and personal experience.
When do you believe the blood is applied and sins are forgiven scotty? At repentance or water baptism?
Then why are you beating this horse brother. I too am starting to wonder why the need to try and divide.
There are over a hundred pages here where us "3-steppers" have spoken against what you are talking about, why are you still trying to make an issue out of a non-issue.
Rigid three steppers are NOT correct.
They, like you ,deny that one coming to Jesus in contrition by faith confessing their sins in SINCERITY receive that FORGIVENESS until they are water washed.
This is not a "non issue." It is THE issue.
If TRUTH divides, it is those who cannot bear the truth that feel that they must hold themselves apart from other christians, contending for thier own view points while calling them "Apostolic Distinctives."
The issue is, they are not Apostolic distinctives at all. They are their own warped distinctives having been schooled in Acts and the Epistles without being properly schooled in the Gospels.
Thank you!.....the man you are referring to , unless the promise of God is false , just recieved the Holy Ghost in the precious name of Jesus ....now ..what was your point???
Evidently,
you do not live on the planet. Evidently you have never knelt to pray with a contrite sinner.
What are you talking about anyway?
Are you saying that you have NEVER knelt beside a sinner praying with them for fogiveness of sins to see them truly repent and NOT then receive the Holy Ghost???
You've never seen a sinner receive forgiveness of sins without being water baptized and receive the Holy Ghost first?
Hey Ferd, I’m not creating division. I would preach ya and never speak ill of you. I’d gladly worship and praise the Lord with you any day. I’m just asking some important questions. This is a soteriological discussion and the statement was made by Mizpeh that the blood is applied at water baptism. That presents a soteriological problem that causes a contradiction between orthodox (what we believe to be right) with orthopraxy (what we rightly experience and practice). If one receives the Holy Ghost BEFORE water baptism…it’s evident that the blood is applied and sins are forgiven prior to water baptism. Since this is a discussion regarding 1 stepper vs. 3 stepper concepts, this experience cannot be denied, overlooked, or swept under the rug. It has to be explained. In all honesty, it nearly proves through biblical example and experience that the 1 steppers have a very solid theological point that works itself out in an experiential fashion in churches throughout the world.
It sounds like you received the Holy Ghost before you were water baptized just like so many of us.
When do you believe the blood was applied?
We agree that water baptism is a command. However, if the blood is applied at repentance, one who is unable to be water baptized may actually be saved. In addition, it means that failure to be baptized isn’t failure to be saved, but failure to obey…i.e. a sin. And then the question comes to mind, can the sin of not being water baptized properly be forgiven? This might explain how men such as William Tyndale were saved without a revelation full truth. However, to him that knows what is right and doeth it not…to him it is sin. Those who know the full truth are accountable to it and therefore if they CAN be water baptized and refuse to be…they will answer for it in the judgment.
But the final point is this…the blood being applied and the forgiveness of sins may very well take place at repentance and not water baptism.
I thank God that I am not a bible scholor. Sometimes it is good to just be a poor dumb kid from the back woods.
It must be the reason why, I can accept both views as being within "orthodxy"
I love the discussion especially when it is moving forward. I dont like it when it is a retread where old accusations are being repeated.
When the blood is applied is only one of the important questions.
What about this one "Can a person be saved and disobedient"?
if the blood is applied at repentance as you believe, but one never comes to obey the scripture that commands baptism in the name of Jesus, are they saved? they have not "obeyed" the Gospel, regardless of the application of the blood.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
A dirty rotten sinner comes to Jesus sorrowful of his dirty rotten sins. He falls at the foot of the cross and prays this prayer with a heart broken over his sins...:
"Jesus, thou Lamb of God, I am sincerely sorry for my sins. I have sinned against you and have become guilty of all. I sincerely ask you to fogive me, wash me in your blood, cast them all away into the great sea of forgetfulness to be remembered no more. I sincerely pledge that I will do all that is within me to never sin against you again. I sincerely pledge that I will be obedient to you in all that you give me understanding. I now accept your forgiveness and I will rise to walk in the light in a new direction as you give me the power."
Then....
Jesus says, "NO." "I do NOT forgive you, regardless HOW SINCERE you are. I still hold all your sins against you. You are UNFORGIVEN still. There is another step or two that you must TAKE before I can possibly forgive you."
Actually...
This does not sound like the kind of Jesus that I find in the Gospels. I find this a perversion of the Gospels.
Scotty...
Now that I have applied the word "sincerely" to one who was truly sincere, to meet your only objection, you can now respond to the correction to the sincere repentant supplication and the Lord's response to the supplication.
I thank God that I am not a bible scholor. Sometimes it is good to just be a poor dumb kid from the back woods.
It must be the reason why, I can accept both views as being within "orthodxy"
I love the discussion especially when it is moving forward. I dont like it when it is a retread where old accusations are being repeated.
When the blood is applied is only one of the important questions.
What about this one "Can a person be saved and disobedient"?
if the blood is applied at repentance as you believe, but one never comes to obey the scripture that commands baptism in the name of Jesus, are they saved? they have not "obeyed" the Gospel, regardless of the application of the blood.
What is the reason behind their failure to obey and be water baptized in Jesus name? Is it because they are dying and cannot move? Was it because they lived in an era in which most were illiterate and never read the Bible, an era when the bible was forbidden to be read by common people and the only sanctioned practice was effusion in titles? Or is it because they see the truth and consider it a cult? Or is it because they’re afraid it calls for a commitment to the faith? Or is it because they are too embarrassed to be water baptized in public?
God judges the thoughts and intent of the heart. Therefore one who cannot be water baptized or a sincere soul who was water baptized incorrectly may still be forgiven.
I thank God that I am not a bible scholor. Sometimes it is good to just be a poor dumb kid from the back woods.
It must be the reason why, I can accept both views as being within "orthodxy"
I love the discussion especially when it is moving forward. I dont like it when it is a retread where old accusations are being repeated.
When the blood is applied is only one of the important questions.
What about this one "Can a person be saved and disobedient"?
if the blood is applied at repentance as you believe, but one never comes to obey the scripture that commands baptism in the name of Jesus, are they saved? they have not "obeyed" the Gospel, regardless of the application of the blood.
It is only among rigid three steppers that I see distinctions being drawn on WHERE the blood is applied.
In the study of the tabernacles, there is application of blood all the way through from the outer court, the holy and the most holy place and upon every article of furniture and each and every object within both places.
Blood is applied at Passover, Pentecost and especially in Tabernacles where there is more blood applied than any other time and place.
Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Not without water washed is there no remission. It is the BLOOD of Jesus that remits sin. Jesus did not ressurrect to take away the sin of the world, but he died as a bloody lamb to take away the sin of the world. It is in the resurrection that the cross is given its power and the power to live victorious over sin...hence I am a three stepper but do not deny the effecacious power of the blood for all who come to him asking for forgiveness. He refuses NONE regardless of subsequent walk, whether it be obedient or disobedient. However, the blood must be continually applied as one who walks on in obedience. Hence the scripture from I Jn...
If we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship one with the other and the blood of Jesus his son cleanseth (continually) from all sin.
Did you receive the Holy Ghost before or after you were water baptized?
When do you believe the blood is applied and sins are forgiven?
The Blood of Jesus was shed when He died. Not when He was buried.
It stands to reason then that the Blood is "applied" when we die to sins at repentance. We are then baptized to separate (and remove us) from our sins, or take away (remove, wash) our sins. Look at the Tabernacle in the wilderness. The altar was where the Blood was spilled (death to sin). The Laver (water) separated sin from the Holy Place. Death, Burial, Resurrection. Repentance, baptism, Holy Ghost. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
It takes all three to complete the work of salvation just as it took death, burial and resurrection to complete the work of Salvation at the Cross.
A repented person lost because he hasn't OBEYED the Scripture? I'm driving down the road doing the posted speed limit. I'm pulled over for driving too fast in a school zone even though the school zone is 5 miles further down the road. Make sense? No. A person sincerely repents of his sins, and God witholds forgiveness until he is baptized? Until he recieves the Holy Ghost? Until he gets full understanding of the Godhead? Until he obeys the "standards"? Salvation isn't a carrot dangled just out of reach. It is a free gift of God for all who will repent of their sins. Baptism is necessary to continue in God, but, it isn't a requirement to begin in God. God will grant salvation to anyone who repents of their sins. If not, John 3:16 is a lie.
So, beat on me awhile... this old horse has been beaten enough.
__________________
"Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for Him...." -Psa. 37:7
Waiting for the Lord is easy... Waiting patiently? Not so much.
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