Spiritual Abuse Forum???

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I have to say, when I read Rev's comment, I thought, "I've never gotten that even once from CS." I don't know you (hardly at all), but I don't believe I've ever seen CS dislike someone simply because they have a strong point of view.

Hello, MissB. I have enjoyed many of your posts when I have had time to read in the past.

CS isn't a fan of my site, but we have had some private contact and I'd even asked him to write an article for the site. Unfortunately he did not.

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Some thoughts:

1. There really is a great amount of diversity in the UPC and among Apostolics in general. However for the "outsider" the diversity isn't all that readily discerned. For the uninitiated it's hard to tell a good pastor from a "dictator" without a couple of years of contact. For this reason we do have a lot of people who come into and out of our churches with some very negative experiences.

As Sherri pointed out, this can be said of virtually any group as well.

2. Reading some of the "testimonies" on some of these abuse sites seems to show that the pastors who abused were also in trouble with the UPC. That point is seldom made. We usually get defensive and "lash out" at criticism (everybody does) and many times we miss an opportunity heal a wound until its "ten years down the road."

3. Wisdom is gained through experience. If you can gain some wisdom from someone else's experience then you're a little bit ahead of the game.

4. UPC churches in many areas operate an evangelism tactic of "bait and switch." They start with an "open door" policy where "everyone's welcome." "New converts" who don't practice the outward appearance standards (someone who looks like Sherri, for example) are allowed to participate in the church's activities, often with the hope that they "get it" through osmosis or something. Then when the church starts to look "charismatic," pressure is applied to the pastor who usually caves in and too many times goes too far or is too harsh in trying to get the folks "cleaned up."

This results in many of the "negative experiences" that you read about. This is also why UPC standards are "cultic" whereas Mennonite standards are just "old timey." We often try to pretend that we're something we're not.

People are genuinely shocked to find out that the friendly little church they had joined is really filled with people who are now inexplicitly angry at them because mama wore a pair of slacks down to the WalMart.

5. I suppose an example of this would be AFF in the last couple of weeks. We had to "weed out" some "compromisers" and now we post a lot about how those "compromisers" are "tearing down the UPC," and etc. Asking for a link to such "tearing down" is answered with sullen silence. More false accusations and puzzling comments like "see I told you that's how those kind of people are..." follow. It's the times honored mechanism of "shoring up the base." No one even tried to prove that these charges of "tearing down the UPC" are true or not. It's enough just to say it to rally likeminded people with a similar disregard for truth.

Again, if you ask for help in seeing that way no answers are forth coming. But if you don't just shut up and play along, then you are suspect.

I've split this post/essay into two parts...

I wouldn't classify those folks as compromisors.

They went way past compromise, and went straight to caving in.

There is a huge difference, in my estimation, between differences of opinion on "standards" and differences in basic doctrine. Especially when those of us who hold to Acts 2:38 as the only proper response to the Gospel were being castigated on a minute by minute basis by your merry band of brothers.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

In the field of conflict resolution there is the principle of "Acknowledgement." If an aggrieved party doesn't feel that the other side even understands that they have hurt someone, then the whole process will be long and drawn out- if it ever gets resolved.

The way most insitutions deal with their wounded is to say that the wounded either had it coming all along, or that while "mistakes were made" but that nobody really got hurt. This is often the real cause of resentment and bitterness, and not the original wound.

Add to this the fact that we really have no means of holding our pastors accountable, coupled with the fact that the wounded are "supposed" to keep silent: I think you can see how some things can really fester for years.

We need to shed the "infallibility and invulnerability" doctrine that we hold up for our pastors. The first people to benefit would be those selfsame pastors. We do allow enough "weasel room" on this that most Apostolics can say, "But my pastor isn't infallible..." But just challenge this same person with a purely academic challenge to his/her pastor's last sermon and see what response you get.

Officially, our pastors and preachers are not infallible nor invulnerable. But in practice, that's exactly what we make them out to be. And this will always lead to spiritual abuse.

FWIW: Rhoni seems to offer an approach where she took responsibility for her own mental health, so to speak. I don't know the circumstances, but she was genuinely hurt. How much better would her healing path have been if there were people around at the start would could say, "You know Rhoni, that must have really hurt..." But we don't tend to say things like that. Instead we say things like, "Were you behind on your tithes when that happened... you know God won't bless you if you're behind on your tithes..."

Pel, I have the feeling that anything I say on this subject is not going to come out right or I will offend someone. Thanks for your response.

[Rev]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I have to say, when I read Rev's comment, I thought, "I've never gotten that even once from CS." I don't know you (hardly at all), but I don't believe I've ever seen CS dislike someone simply because they have a strong point of view.

Here is a Quote from coonskinner:

Hanging around here isn't going to help you much, although you have received some good advice on this thread.

Spiritualabuse.org is even worse.

Originally Posted by Rev

Here is a Quote from coonskinner:

Hanging around here isn't going to help you much, although you have received some good advice on this thread.

Spiritualabuse.org is even worse.

And if I wanted to take the time, I could give you another quote that accurately portrays what he thinks of me, not the site. I'm sure you could find it if you wanted.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Rev

Here is a Quote from coonskinner:

Hanging around here isn't going to help you much, although you have received some good advice on this thread.

Spiritualabuse.org is even worse.

His opinion of the site and opinion of the site owner aren't necessarily one and the same, Rev.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

I wouldn't classify those folks as compromisors.

They went way past compromise, and went straight to caving in.

There is a huge difference, in my estimation, between differences of opinion on "standards" and differences in basic doctrine. Especially when those of us who hold to Acts 2:38 as the only proper response to the Gospel were being castigated on a minute by minute basis by your merry band of brothers.

Like I said, my friend... Like I said.

[Rev]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

His opinion of the site and opinion of the site owner aren't necessarily one and the same, Rev.

He said other things, but I will let him make up his own mind if he wants to have anything to say on this thread or not.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Sherri

I just went to the Spiritual Abuse website that Lois Somebody oversees. Does anyone know anything about her or this site? I have never been on it before, and honestly, I don't understand what she's trying to accomplish. No matter how much it says that it's not bashing UPC, it seems that that's the agenda there.

I know and understand that there is major abuse in some situations, but there is major abuse in any organization or denomination. People are people, some good and some bad. If you choose to leave a group (like we did), I think you should just leave and not rehash all the things you think are evil about it. What is the point of "exposing" things ten years down the road? Sorry, but I just think this is wrong.

Like I've said many times, the UPC brought me to Jesus. If it were not for my heritage, I might not have the privilege of knowing Him. Were there things that were wrong? Sure! Do we do everything correctly now? NOOOOOOOOO! We are all still learning.

Just my thoughts for the day!

Sister when you get down to the nitty gritty every religious organization and political movement can be blamed for spiritual abuse. Or some sort of abuse. Anyway Lois gives enough information on her sight for anyone without a crying towel wrapped in agenda to make up their own mind.

UPCI has some wonderful splendid people in it, and in the rest of the Apostolic movement we have some dynamite people who are the best on earth.

If someone is really looking for truth the Lord knows how to steer them to a direction where they will be able to make a choice between the Holy and the profane.

I just heard an advertisement for not Religion dot com forum. I bring this site up because this is the fad right now to be anti-spiritual, anti-religious, and just plain old atheist. I speak with a lot of young people who are anti-Christians, anti-religion, these young people are looking for debate and argument but they really do want their questions answered.

The Spiritual Abuse Crew may at times run right along side the atheist's forums and what it tends to do is make our jobs more interesting.

It just makes preachers and teachers dig in and study and strengthen their arguments. This is not a bad thing but a good thing. Sharpen the sword to razor sharpness.

Anyway let the dogs bark and the trucks roll on!

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

[freeatlast]

WOW this a news flash to me. I have read much of the spiritualabuse.com site.

I have posted with and respected Sarge's post in the past. She has always impressed me as a level headed, fair, kind type of poster.

I have wished she would post more here.

Until just now I had no idea that Sarge was one and the same as Lois.

Drop in more often Lois. ;-)