yay me, when in the discussion of the proper (or improper) roles of pastors i was the first perm ban from justpreachers.com
silly me, i actually based my arguement off a literal exegesis of Ephesians and the five fold while others dropped terms like "apostolic covering" and basically put forth the idea that you pretty much cannot be saved without a pastor.
i think pastors are there to be counselors, friends, and teachers. my salvation and growth rests in Christ and the scriptures alone. The five fold ministry is there to grow and strengthen the church, it is not salvational.
the actual cut and paste was deleted per the admin of this forum due to their internal rules about c/p from other forums for those that can't see it since someone will say "where is it"
but it was the admin from justpreachers Jim Renfro that said that.. blows your mind eh?
i use a keylogger on my computer so heres exactly what i said from my PC logs.. i dont see where this is out of the Word or heretical...
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lets go hyper literal with the ESV
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who
is over all and through all and in all.
7 But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of
Christ's gift.
8 Therefore it says,"When he ascended on high he led a host of
captives, and he gave gifts to men."
9 (In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also
descended into the lower regions, the earth? [1]
10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the
heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the
shepherds [2] and teachers, [3] 12 to equip the saints for the work of
ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain
to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to
mature manhood, [4] to the measure of the stature of the fullness of
Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by
the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human
cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way
into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body,
joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped,
when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it
builds itself up in love.
I see it for the building up and strengthening of the corporate church
and us as individuals.. don't see any reference to salvation or
soteriology in there. Nor do i see anything on submission and
authority. Its just a general principle that the 5 fold ministry is a
resource to guide and grow the church in various ways.
The submission and authority stuff may "preach" well ... but when you
go to the actual text and stick to it it, you may find it isn't there
and would disrupt the view of human authority that may (or may not) be
biblical or "apostolic"
i didn't say we didn't need them in practice or they weren't valuable.
my contention is that the position that a pastor has any level of
extraordinary authority over his saints beyond being a guide, teacher
and counselor is why we have tens of thousands of damaged people who
hate our message.. because we made man the authority and arbiter in
our walk and not the teachings of Christ and scripture alone.
i just don't throw salvation into the mix, nor do i make the scripture
say more than it actually does.
as one of my mentors Dr. David Norris says "Don't be smarter than the text"
i didn't say we didn't need them in practice or they weren't valuable.
my contention is that the position that a pastor has any level of
extraordinary authority over his saints beyond being a guide, teacher
and counselor is why we have tens of thousands of damaged people who
hate our message.. because we made man the authority and arbiter in
our walk and not the teachings of Christ and scripture alone.
i just don't throw salvation into the mix, nor do i make the scripture
say more than it actually does.
as one of my mentors Dr. David Norris says "Don't be smarter than the text"
I am quoting this part because, being the glutton for punishment that I am, I am listening to Verbal Bean's "Scum in the Pot" message and it blames ALL of the churches ills on the pastor not being given the proper authority that he is due. There is plenty of 'standards' talk but it all comes back to the first point.
Listening to him is like listening to a liberal politician. Both identify the 'problem' correctly yet their solutions are 180 degrees out of phase.
yay me, when in the discussion of the proper (or improper) roles of pastors i was the first perm ban from justpreachers.com
silly me, i actually based my arguement off a literal exegesis of Ephesians and the five fold while others dropped terms like "apostolic covering" and basically put forth the idea that you pretty much cannot be saved without a pastor.
i think pastors are there to be counselors, friends, and teachers. my salvation and growth rests in Christ and the scriptures alone. The five fold ministry is there to grow and strengthen the church, it is not salvational.
I strongly disagree that it is not salvational.
You may not have a pastor to help pray you through to the Holy Ghost, but in the end you cannot be saved without one.
Years ago, the old timers used to compare such a lone ranger with a coal of fire that separated from the fire. While the fire still burns, the coal will eventually fade away into a little pile of ash. You must have a pastor and be a part of the fold if you are not going to burn out, become cold or backslid.
Stick with all the exegesis that you want, the reality is fact.
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