In light of classical Pentecostal doctrine and teaching...where would God and we as the people of God stand on America's dropping the atom bomb killing masses of innocent civilians?
I've never thought to ask this question but; did we warn the civilian population of Japan in any way?
This post is a perfect example. Why do you say "in light of classical Pentecostal doctrine and teaching" rather than "in light of scripture", and then provide references?
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"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
Chris, did you read it? He uses words like 'probably' and 'more probably'. He's not even sure himself. It's just his opinion based on supposition.
Bro. Bernard uses those words because there are others who may disagree. He isn't being dogmatic so as to establish a dogma on the issue. I see it as both wise and compelling.
He says "probably"...after reviewing this interpretation in light of Scripture, namely the teachings of Jesus, I'd say assuredly.
Don't mistaken manners for uncertainty.
If Jesus intended them to use the swords to defend themselves...why did he rebuke Peter for using it in the garden. Ah, but one may say that it was because Peter was unknowingly thwarting salvation's plan. Oh but dear friend, why then don't we see Peter using this sword elsewhere, he had ample need and opportunity to defend himself later when persecuted. However, Peter never uses violence again...ultimately embracing his own martyrdom.
I find it troubling that Muslims are willing to blow themselves up to be obedient to their Allah...but so few Christians are willing to be like Christ. I present to you that real Christianity isn't popular and isn't met with ticker-tape parades. The cross is a symbol of death...agonizing death. Death to self, death to sin, death to this world. And this cross is a cross that will cost the seeker who truly seeks to follow the way of the sandaled feet of the Galilean carpenter.
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"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11 (English Standard Version)
The end conclusion of pacifism is to state that those who participate in national, state or personal self-defense are murderers, and that is the premise I completely disagree with. If an invader enters this home, this home and the life of its occupants will be defended with priority over the life of the invader. What would I be saying to my children who God placed in my care if I were to allow them to be hurt, injured or killed by an intruder? That I care more for the stranger's body and soul than I do theirs?
I have a responsibility to defend my children, and I have a right to defend myself. Those rights and responsibilities are not forbidden or refuted by scripture.
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
Bro. Bernard uses those words because there are others who may disagree. He isn't being dogmatic so as to establish a dogma on the issue. I see it as both wise and compelling.
He says "probably"...after reviewing this interpretation in light of Scripture, namely the teachings of Jesus, I'd say assuredly.
Don't mistaken manners for uncertainty.
If Jesus intended them to use the swords to defend themselves...why did he rebuke Peter for using it in the garden. Ah, but one may say that it was because Peter was unknowingly thwarting salvation's plan. Oh but dear friend, why then don't we see Peter using this sword elsewhere, he had ample need and opportunity to defend himself later when persecuted. However, Peter never uses violence again...ultimately embracing his own martyrdom.
Chris, come on. Nobody uses words indicating being unsure just because someone might disagree with him. Does he write his books using those words? No, he doesn't. When someone uses 'probably' in any sentence, that means there is reasonable doubt...not by the person reading or hearing those words, but by the person writing or speaking them.
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I've gone and done it now! I'm on Facebook!!!
This post is a perfect example. Why do you say "in light of classical Pentecostal doctrine and teaching" rather than "in light of scripture", and then provide references?
It is written,
“But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but
whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to
him the other also. . . . Love your enemies, bless them
that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and
pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute
you” (Matthew 5:39, 44)
“Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they
that take the sword shall perish with the sword” (Matthew
26:52)
“And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying,
And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do
violence to no man” (Luke 3:14)
“For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war
after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are
not carnal)” (II Corinthians 10:3-4)
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood”
(Ephesians 6:12)
“Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he
doth not resist you” (James 5:6)
"And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:" (1 Cor 4:12)
"Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing." (1 Pet 3:9)
"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." (John 18:36)
"And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep." (Acts 7:59-60)
"But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood." (Acts 15:20)
"That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts 15:29)
"17Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." (Romans 12:17-19)
"11For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law." (James 2:11)
" 18Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
19For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
20For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:" (I Peter 2:18-21)
"15But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters." (I Peter 4:15)
"And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" (Revelation 6:10)
"10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints." (Revelation 13:10)
"Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her." (Revelation 18:20)
"For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand." (Revelation 19:2)
Lastly consider the lives and martyrdom of the Apostles. Where do you see them using or advocating lethal force to defend themselves or Rome?
The Scriptural and historical evidence of the New Testament position against the use of lethal force is overwhelming. This doesn't mean we do nothing. It means we do what is necessary accept using lethal force. We don't kill.
__________________
"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11 (English Standard Version)
On the subject of FOX News lying,--how did they lie? This madman said the things he said to incite hate. We are dealing with someone here who is wresting the Scriptures to his own destruction. This evil man was exposed,- and what he says on the rest of the video does not justify his hatred. There is a time for war and a time to kill- that is what the Scripture says!
“But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but
whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to
him the other also. . . . Love your enemies, bless them
that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and
pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute
you” (Matthew 5:39, 44)
“Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they
that take the sword shall perish with the sword” (Matthew
26:52)
“And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying,
And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do
violence to no man” (Luke 3:14)
“For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war
after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare are
not carnal)” (II Corinthians 10:3-4)
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood”
(Ephesians 6:12)
“Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he
doth not resist you” (James 5:6)
"And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:" (1 Cor 4:12)
"Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing." (1 Pet 3:9)
"Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." (John 18:36)
"And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep." (Acts 7:59-60)
"But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood." (Acts 15:20)
"That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts 15:29)
"17Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
18If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
19Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord." (Romans 12:17-19)
"11For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law." (James 2:11)
" 18Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
19For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
20For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:" (I Peter 2:18-21)
"15But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters." (I Peter 4:15)
"And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" (Revelation 6:10)
"10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints." (Revelation 13:10)
"Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her." (Revelation 18:20)
"For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand." (Revelation 19:2)
Lastly consider the lives and martyrdom of the Apostles. Where do you see them using or advocating lethal force to defend themselves or Rome?
The Scriptural and historical evidence of the New Testament position against the use of lethal force is overwhelming. This doesn't mean we do nothing. It means we do what is necessary accept using lethal force. We don't kill.
Thanks for posting this, CH! We may not agree completely on the drawn conclusions, but I certainly find scripture to be more persuasive than writings by any man.
__________________
"God, send me anywhere, only go with me. Lay any burden on me, only sustain me. And sever any tie in my heart except the tie that binds my heart to Yours."
--David Livingstone
"To see no being, not God’s or any, but you also go thither,
To see no possession but you may possess it—enjoying all without labor or purchase—
abstracting the feast, yet not abstracting one particle of it;…."
--Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass, Song of the Open Road
The end conclusion of pacifism is to state that those who participate in national, state or personal self-defense are murderers, and that is the premise I completely disagree with.
I respect your opinion...can you provide Scripture illustrating that New Testament Christians engage in war and use lethal force to defend themselves and their families?
Quote:
If an invader enters this home, this home and the life of its occupants will be defended with priority over the life of the invader. What would I be saying to my children who God placed in my care if I were to allow them to be hurt, injured or killed by an intruder? That I care more for the stranger's body and soul than I do theirs?
The issue is "lethal force". I firmly believe in immobilizing, disarming, outwitting, escaping, or incapacitating an attacker. I addressed this in the previous thread by explaining this. I would use whatever means available to thwart an attack and allow my family accept the use lethal force, even if it cost me my life. I'm saved...the attacker isn't. If as a result of my death they survive and find salvation I will rejoice with them on streets of gold.
Quote:
I have a responsibility to defend my children, and I have a right to defend myself. Those rights and responsibilities are not forbidden or refuted by scripture.
Sister, I firmly agree with you. You have the responsibility to defend your family. However at your disposal are a number of means...not just lethal force. Your options are,
-Escape - the best option by far
-Martyrdom - pleading for the attackers salvation while they attack you allowing your family to escape
-Reliance on Divine Intervention- requires much faith and reliance upon God's providence
-Ruse- requires a quick intellect capable of thinking under extreme stress
-Nonlethal Violence- requires the use of nonlethal martial arts, objects, or weapons such as stun guns
-Or Moral Disarming- requires discerning the heart of the attacker and allowing the Holy Ghost to reveal what must be said to win them over, causing them to cease in their efforts and perhaps turn themselves in or leave on their own accord
I'm not a pacifist Sister. I have a little something that will leave any invader of my home "standing in the need of prayer". However, it will not kill them.
__________________
"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11 (English Standard Version)
Chris, come on. Nobody uses words indicating being unsure just because someone might disagree with him. Does he write his books using those words? No, he doesn't. When someone uses 'probably' in any sentence, that means there is reasonable doubt...not by the person reading or hearing those words, but by the person writing or speaking them.
Yes he does. I've read them as required reading. He's very analytical and affords the reader the right to draw their own conclusion, however he's convinced of the position. Remember, he's writing material that is to be read by an entire organization of ministers with various view points. He's writing respectfully and with much respect.
That's called...tact.
Quote:
Webster's Dictionary:
tact
Pronunciation:
\ˈtakt\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
French, sense of touch, from Latin tactus, from tangere to touch — more at tangent
Date:
1797
1 : sensitive mental or aesthetic perception <converted the novel into a play with remarkable skill and tact> 2 : a keen sense of what to do or say in order to maintain good relations with others or avoid offense
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"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11 (English Standard Version)
On the subject of FOX News lying,--how did they lie? This madman said the things he said to incite hate. We are dealing with someone here who is wresting the Scriptures to his own destruction. This evil man was exposed,- and what he says on the rest of the video does not justify his hatred. There is a time for war and a time to kill- that is what the Scripture says!
We only heard snippets of the sermon. How did the sermon end?
Anyone can take something someone said out of context and exaggerate it's meaning. I'd like to know how the sermon ended so that I can be certain I'm judging this man with righteous judgment instead of jumping to an emotionally driven conclusion.
For the record...I don't think Fox News is lying. I do think they only gave us a couple seconds of an entire sermon. By preventing us from seeing the closing of the sermon I feel reservations with jumping to condemnation. Though from what I heard...it was over the top. I once heard a sermon titled "Go to Hell!" If only snippets of this sermon was played on television you'd think this man was condemning every sinner in America. However, it closed with a plea that we Christians act to prevent this from happening to a lost and dying world.
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"For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans for wholeness and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11 (English Standard Version)
We may not agree completely on the drawn conclusions, but I certainly find scripture to be more persuasive than writings by any man.
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