Charismatic Apostolic

[James Griffin]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

It absolutely does!!! It increases it due to the freedom!

MOW because DA steps it down you gotta step it up?



You know one can have long hair and long skirts and still be free.

( And yes I was referring to the ladies, preempting the foreseeable comment)

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

MOW because DA steps it down you gotta step it up?



You know one can have long hair and long skirts and still be free.

( And yes I was referring to the ladies, preempting the foreseeable comment)

LOL!!! That is because they are FREE to wear that long hair and skirts!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

My question was based upon your attack on the doctrine of perfection. Not that I am anybody. However when I quote Jesus I am fully aware of the context. Like you pointed out he is teaching how to deal with people in different situations.

Then when he finishes his teaching he says be perfect as the Father is perfect. He means we are to DO those things which he just said. If he means to "follow through" with his commandments what is your problem with the doctrine of perfection? If we follow through in my mind that is the same thing as to DO what he said.

Thats all the doctrine of perfection is. To follow through or DO what Jesus says. Simple.

What I meant by "follow through" was that we treat those who are "evil" the same as we treat those who are "good" for, as Jesus points out, this is how our Father in heaven treats people.

When you say "the doctrine of perfection" you seem to be wanting to make it sound like "The Doctrine of Perfection." This idea has even more variables and variants than most "Doctrines." As I pointed out earlier, I had an interesting experience with one man's idea of "Christian Perfectionism" and I've seen others that have been equally bad. Also, the Mormon church has a "Doctrine of Perfection" that fits into their theology nicely.

The King James may even be less than "perfect" in even translating the underlying Greek words into "perfection." The NIV uses "maturity." I think this rendering avoids some of the hill-billy theology that I describe and that you appear to have been fortunate enough to have avoided.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by pelathais

What I meant by "follow through" was that we treat those who are "evil" the same as we treat those who are "good" for, as Jesus points out, this is how our Father in heaven treats people.

When you say "the doctrine of perfection" you seem to be wanting to make it sound like "The Doctrine of Perfection." This idea has even more variables and variants than most "Doctrines." As I pointed out earlier, I had an interesting experience with one man's idea of "Christian Perfectionism" and I've seen others that have been equally bad. Also, the Mormon church has a "Doctrine of Perfection" that fits into their theology nicely.

The King James may even be less than "perfect" in even translating the underlying Greek words into "perfection." The NIV uses "maturity." I think this rendering avoids some of the hill-billy theology that I describe and that you appear to have been fortunate enough to have avoided.

Yes who is denying we should follow through with Jesus commands about how to treat people?

But are you denying that we should follow through with all the rest of the teachings of Jesus? If so on what basis? If we are to keep his word about how we treat others what makes the rest of his teachings undoable?

What is the difference in the doctrine of perfection and the Doctrine Of Perfection?

So the King James is a hillbilly Bible? Thats funny. You suppose it was made here in Kentucky?

So some seem to not understand that Strongs definition of perfect includes being complete in moral character. If the word just means "mature" we know that means grown up.

So now with THAT definition alone we are supposed to be grown up EVEN AS our Father in Heaven is grown up!

If we are to be grown up as the Father is do you suppose we would be sinning?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

What was the "different angle" that caused families to leave your church?

It wasn't so much the "angle" as it was that people had something to kind of latch onto as they were struggling to find ways to articulate their discomfort with the church and pastor.

The pastor in question claimed that God had "spoken" to him directly about Mark 16:17. He claimed that God told him that he should drop the semi colon from between "them that believe" and "In my name..." so that the passage read:

"These signs shall follow them that believe in my name..."

He claimed that he "looked it up in the Greek and found it to be so!" I asked him many times to explain something to me that he had "looked up in the Greek" but he never would. He wouldn't even use a Strong's Concordance to try and help me to understand what he was talking about.

He would just get excited while preaching and make some boastful statement that he hoped no one would even remember and move on like nothing happened. I think he hated it when people actually paid attention- and of course when he preached for 2 and 3 hours at a time a lot of people would drop out mentally. But when he got really excited about some point - I always figured that we should be paying attention to that, at least.

Brother Mangun was preaching about the name of Jesus and doing things in the name of Jesus. He emphasized the "doing" by saying "in my name they will cast out devils... in my name they will speak with new tongues... in my name they will lay hands on the sick!..." Also, he was completely unaware of our own private local traditions and problems so it wasn't like he could have even been considering meddling or anything like that.

After that camp meeting a few folks got their eyes opened and they didn't like what they saw. Blasphemy and taking the Lord's name in vain were just two of the things that had come to my mind, but these folks didn't want any trouble and just quietly slipped away.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Yes who is denying we should follow through with Jesus commands about how to treat people?

But are you denying that we should follow through with all the rest of the teachings of Jesus? If so on what basis? If we are to keep his word about how we treat others what makes the rest of his teachings undoable?

You really outta try decaf, bro.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by pelathais

You really outta try decaf, bro.

If I am not undertanding what you mean tell me. First you said we agreed now you seem to be questioning whether I understand that Jesus taught us to treat evil people kindly.

If I DO that I would be following through/doing what Jesus said.

I said earlier thats the simplicity of the doctrine of perfection. Its just DOING what the Lord said to do.

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by pelathais

You really outta try decaf, bro.

Tell me what you think about the underlined part of this scripture ?

Eph.5:3: But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;4: Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.5: For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God

Gal.5:19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God

1 Cor.6:9: Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,(Homosexuals)10: Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God

Do you agree these things in red is sin ? Do you think Jesus did these things in red ? Do you agree we are to be pure as Jesus is pure ? Do you agree if we abide in him we sin not ?

1 John3:3: And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.4: Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.5: And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.6: Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If I am not undertanding what you mean tell me. First you said we agreed now you seem to be questioning whether I understand that Jesus taught us to treat evil people kindly.

If I DO that I would be following through/doing what Jesus said.

I said earlier thats the simplicity of the doctrine of perfection. Its just DOING what the Lord said to do.

Amen,just do it,if you have a problem doing it then pray and fast untill you get delievered and can do it.Make every effort and you will over come.

[pelathais]

Thanks, and sorry for the sarcasm. But when I read, "But are you denying that we should follow through with all the rest of the teachings of Jesus? If so on what basis? If we are to keep his word about how we treat others what makes the rest of his teachings undoable?" I almost despaired of communicating.

Nothing makes the commandments of Jesus "undoable." But say, for example, I hear you something in a way that you never intended, and then I reply with sarcasm - I may either be failing to keep a teaching of Jesus, or I may at the very least be walking along a thin line.

Since it was not my intention to violate anything that Jesus instructed me to do, but a result of a misunderstanding I probably have not "sinned." However, I have shown that I am less than "perfect."

It is the use of the English word "perfect" that seems to cause some grief here; and I would argue that since Jesus didn't speak English during His eartly ministry and since there are better words than what the KJV uses here - why not use those words.

People wilt under the pressure of trying to be "perfect." However, if we say that there is a process of maturity that we all go through - then it's not so bad. The final goal may be the same, but I think I can make a journey that is comprised of doable steps; where I would fail if I had to suddenly become "perfect."